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Hoboken, 1910
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   Author  Topic: Hoboken, 1910  (Read 372 times)
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Hoboken, 1910
 
« on: Dec 22nd, 2012, 10:49pm »
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Another rare old view......taken 102 years ago!
 
The new DL&W terminal is only three years old here; its copper finish still had a number of years to go before aquiring its distinctive green patina.
 
The new PS elevated trolley terminal (which served the cars until 1949) is nearing completion.
 
To the right can be seen a number of DL&W "stick lighters", awaiting thier next assignments.
 
A NYC West Shore ferry from Weehawken, on the Cortlandt St. route, can be seen on the North (Hudson) River..............
 
"H.F.M."
 
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?116245
 
(photo courtesy of the George Conrad collection)


« Last Edit: Dec 22nd, 2012, 11:02pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #1 on: Dec 22nd, 2012, 11:01pm »
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Note:
 
In previous photo, the large brick building adjacent to the elevated trolley terminal was owned by the H&M, housing machine shops and an elevator that was used to deliver the new cars, just prior to the H&M's 1908 opening.
 
In later years, PATH would still be using the old structure, and the elevator would be used to haul flat cars, loaded with maintainence equipment and construction materials, from street level down to tunnel level.......
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Dec 22nd, 2012, 11:02pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
Charlie Ricker
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Posts: 2210
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #2 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 10:42am »
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What a great view! This grandiose terminal was certainly built "For The Ages", like most things the Lackawanna built.
 
If the Lackawanna were only around today, I would chance that one of their mottos would be, "Go Big or Go Home!"  
 
Charlie


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 10:42am by Charlie Ricker » Logged

~Charlie Ricker

HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #3 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:17am »
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on Dec 23rd, 2012, 10:42am, charlie6017 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
What a great view! This grandiose terminal was certainly built "For The Ages", like most things the Lackawanna built.
 
If the Lackawanna were only around today, I would chance that one of their mottos would be, "Go Big or Go Home!"  
 
Charlie

 
Charlie:
 
Indeed!
 
ANYTHING the DL&W built was SURE to be of substantial construction, and most handsomely designed!
 
The same achitect who designed the DL&W's Hoboken terminal, also designed the long-gone Union Ferry Terminal in Manhattan, at the foot of W.23rd St.  
 
This massive terminal was served by several railroads (including the DL&W, who was the last tenant; the last boat departed for Hoboken in 1946).
 
Street-side facade views make it evident that this was a "sister" facility of the Hoboken Terminal; a similiar (but slightly different styled) clock tower also graced this huge terminal.
 
The old Hoboken Terminal, sadly, suffered much interior damage during Hurricane Sandy; several feet of salt-water tidal surge caused much damage.
 
The massive waiting room benches, for example, were yanked from their footings, and tossed against each other like dominoes.
 
This was also seen on the news in this area, and was very disturbing to see.
 
Still, the terminal structure itself stood firm, yet another powerful testimony to the solid construction that so much was a trademark of "The Route Of Phiebe Snow"!
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:19am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
Charlie Ricker
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Posts: 2210
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #4 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 12:25pm »
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HFM/All:
 
Yes.......I remember seeing a few shots of the insides after the hurricane. Such a sad thing to see. I would love to have one of those waiting room benches to work on and restore. Would be a strange sight in my apartment, but that's okay!
 
Seriously though......any idea what's going to happen with this building? I take NJT owns and still uses the terminal?
 
Charlie


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~Charlie Ricker

HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #5 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 12:37pm »
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on Dec 23rd, 2012, 12:25pm, charlie6017 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
HFM/All:
 
Yes.......I remember seeing a few shots of the insides after the hurricane. Such a sad thing to see. I would love to have one of those waiting room benches to work on and restore. Would be a strange sight in my apartment, but that's okay!
 
Seriously though......any idea what's going to happen with this building? I take NJT owns and still uses the terminal?
 
Charlie

 
Charlie:
 
Yes, as I had mentioned earlier, the old DL&W terminal is one of NJT's busiest "intermodal" facilities (commuter rail/ferry/PATH/HBLR/bus).
 
Tremendous crowds still pass through here during the rush hours; right now, ticketing facilities, etc., are located in trailers outside, due to the damage inside from Hurricane Sandy.
 
As the "new" ferries are small vessels that load from the main deck only, the massive upper ferry concourse is not in use by the general public; however, I have heard that this cavernous area (with its six Tiffany skylights) is being restored, and will be re-used in some capacity.
 
It was last used for ferry passengers in 1967.
 
Restoration work on the interior is going to take quite awhile; virtually the only part of the facility NOT under water was the old ferry concourse on the upper level........
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 12:38pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
ErieAtlantic7597
Historian
Posts: 5838
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #6 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 2:29pm »
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   HFM,  
 
   this may be slightly off topic, but your description of the latest damage to the Hoboken/DL&W terminal reminded me of an incident, years ago, that I had totally fogotten about. But it was at the ERIE terminal. So almost in the same place but no later than the  mid fiftys.
 
   I was with my mother and my grandmother. I don't remember if my older sister was with us or not. We had been shopping in lower Manhattan all day, as was a normal thing to do for my mother's family.
 
   As we approached Jersey City on the ERIE ferry, it was very noticeable that the water was ABOVE the wooden deck area. We had to walk, carefully on planking set up on some kind of blocks. When we got to the platforms to get on the train that would bring us to Paterson, we were still up on planking. And had to step to about the second step on the old Stillwell car. There had to be at least a foot of water deep, all the way to, and past the passenger loading platforms.
 
   This was so many years ago, that I can't now remember what caused this kind of rise of the Hudson River during that day.
 
   Sorry for being a little off topic here. I'm sadended to hear of the damage to the interior of the DL&W Hobobken terminal. I remember it well because of the ERIE trains going there instead of to Jersey City.
 
   Bruce R.


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #7 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 3:56pm »
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Bruce:
 
First of all, you are NOT "off topic" at all; rather, you have posted something QUITE interesting which is of a RELATED nature!
 
I indeed enjoyed reading of this somewhat frightening experience at the ERIE terminal at Pavonia Avenue; this reminded me of something I had read awhile ago, and I just finished doing a little quick "research" to recall it more in detail.
 
The following info comes from: "THE ROUTE OF THE ERIE LIMITED", by Rod Dirkes and John Krause......
 
".......the ERIE LIMITED usually arrived on Track #12, the northermost of the terminal tracks at Pavonia Avenue. This track accepted the longer trains more easily than the others, as it extended across the passenger concourse and out onto a pier......."
 
"......at times of high tide, the engines would literally have to 'wade in' as at least two feet of water would submerge the track, and the engines would have to slog through the water to reach the clearance of the reverse crossover......."
 
".......special instructions in the ERIE employee Timetables prohibited roller bearing-equipped engines from going through water nore than two feet deep on this track......"
 
So, bearing this in mind, the ERIE terminal obviously had to deal with tidal issues that the DL&W did not at Hoboken, just to the North.
 
Bruce, am glad you decided to post here, as this allowed me to share this obscure ERIE info with you and the others!
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 3:58pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
ErieAtlantic7597
Historian
Posts: 5838
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #8 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 6:34pm »
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HFM,
 
  Thanks for digging into the tide problems that I'm sure, many, if not all of the RRs that had docks on the Hudson had to put up with in order to function. What I wrote about just happened, by accident, to be a personal rememebrance.  
 
   Bruce R.


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Henry
Historian
Posts: 6122
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #9 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 7:19pm »
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on Dec 23rd, 2012, 6:34pm, ErieAtlantic7597 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
HFM,
 
  Thanks for digging into the tide problems that I'm sure, many, if not all of the RRs that had docks on the Hudson had to put up with in order to function. What I wrote about just happened, by accident, to be a personal rememebrance.  
 
   Bruce R.

 
Might it have been Hurricane Diane in 1955? It put quite a whammy on the Erie. It did so much damage to the Dunmore car shops that Erie abandoned them and built new car shops at Meadville.
 
Henry


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Charlie Ricker
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Posts: 2210
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #10 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 8:22pm »
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Henry/HFM/Bruce/Everyone else :
 
Henry, I have a feeling you're right because the Erie and the DL&W started primarily using the Hoboken Terminal prior to the merger in 1960.  
 
The Wikipedia article on Hoboken Terminal says that the Erie began using it in 1956--but not sure if that's correct--thought it was late 1957 or early '58?  
 
At any rate, Pavonia was only used by commuters on the Northern Branch.
 
Great stuff everyone.......really enjoying this thread!
 
Charlie


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:42pm by Charlie Ricker » Logged

~Charlie Ricker

HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #11 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:24pm »
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on Dec 23rd, 2012, 8:22pm, charlie6017 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Henry/HFM/Bruce?Everyone else :
 
Henry, I have a feeling you're right because the Erie and the DL&W started primarily using the Hoboken Terminal prior to the merger in 1960.  
 
The Wikipedia article on Hoboken Terminal says that the Erie began using it in 1956--but not sure if that's correct--thought it was late 1957 or early '58?  
 
At any rate, Pavonia was only used by commuters on the Northern Branch.
 
Great stuff everyone.......really enjoying this thread!
 
Charlie

 
Charlie/All:
 
By October of 1956, the ERIE had shifted most of its non-rush hour trains, including is long-distance services, up to the DL&W terminal at Hoboken.  
 
The second stage of the shift took place in March of 1957, when the remaining commuter trains (except those of the NORTHERN BRANCH) were also shifted up to Hoboken.
 
Although new track connections and signal changes cost $1,000,000, savings exceeded that amount annually.
 
Too, at Hoboken, with its commodius upper level ferry concourse, the ferries could be loaded and unloaded far more quickly than at Jersey City, particularly during the rush hours.
 
By December of 1958, the old ERIE terminal and the Chambers St. ferries were closed down.
 
The NYS&W trains also terminated at Pavonia Avenue, and, by 1960 (the terminal buildings were already torn down by this time) the trains ceased running to Jersey City, terminating now at SUSQUEHANNA TRANSFER, adjacent to the Lincoln Tunnel.
 
By the time the NYS&W trains stopped running to Jersey City, there was only the H&M connection to enable commuters to reach Manhattan.
 
Also, two ex-ERIE ferryboats were added to the DL&W fleet; one of them, re-christened MAPLEWOOD, ran until 1965, when excessive operating expenses caused her to be retired......
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:26pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #12 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:33pm »
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on Dec 23rd, 2012, 7:19pm, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Might it have been Hurricane Diane in 1955? It put quite a whammy on the Erie. It did so much damage to the Dunmore car shops that Erie abandoned them and built new car shops at Meadville.
 
Henry

 
Henry:
 
Our good friend Tom (TAB) has often told me of a personal experience he and his mother experienced at Hoboken, at the height of Diane in 1955.
 
They had come up from Bayonne to meet his dad, who was due in on the PHOEBE SNOW.
 
He recalled that the passengers were kept inside the waiting room as the storm worsened, and one could hear the shrieking and groans of the DL&W tugs moored just outside, pulling and yanking at their moorings.
 
The level of the river, he recounts, was just about at the level of the bulkheads, where the river would have overflowed into the terminal.
 
After many hours the PHOEBE arrived, powered by a NYC switcher, with a much abbreviated consist.
 
Much of the train had to be left at some location, and the shortened consist had to negotiate much switchbacking and detouring to finally get into Hoboken.
 
Thankfully, Tom's dad and the other passengers arrived at Hoboken safely.
 
Yes, from pictures I've seen, Diane caused tremendous destruction along the DL&W.......
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:47pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #13 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:41pm »
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on Dec 23rd, 2012, 6:34pm, ErieAtlantic7597 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
HFM,
 
  Thanks for digging into the tide problems that I'm sure, many, if not all of the RRs that had docks on the Hudson had to put up with in order to function. What I wrote about just happened, by accident, to be a personal rememebrance.  
 
   Bruce R.

 
 
Bruce:
 
You are quite welcome!
 
Certainly, what you experienced was indeed something that you would most certainly never forget.
 
My mother still recalls the powerful East Coast hurricane around 1937; like Sandy, the H&M (PATH) tubes were flooded, and all service suspended.
 
The many railroad ferries in operation then were all shut down, not only because of the high winds, but also, because the rising tides and tidal surges had rendered the upper and lower loading ramps at the New Jersey and Manhattan terminals inoperable.
 
I can also recall a very bad storm when I was just a lad, with the Hudson flowing through the lower ferry concourse at Hoboken, and up over the plaza where the statue of Samuel Sloane stood.
 
I can still remember, young as I was, seeing the tracks at Hoboken inundated to the tops of the rails.
 
This had to be at least 50 or so years ago.
 
Rough weather like this had always been the bane of the old waterfront rail facilities......
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:41pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
Charlie Ricker
Moderator
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Posts: 2210
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #14 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:51pm »
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HFM/All:
 
Thanks for clarifying on those dates. It must have been the "second stage" date that threw me off. It's unfortunate that these storms have caused such damage--looking forward to seeing this beautiful work of art restored to glory!  
 
Charlie


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~Charlie Ricker

HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #15 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 10:05pm »
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on Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:51pm, charlie6017 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
HFM/All:
 
Thanks for clarifying on those dates. It must have been the "second stage" date that threw me off. It's unfortunate that these storms have caused such damage--looking forward to seeing this beautiful work of art restored to glory!  
 
Charlie

 
 
Charlie:
 
My pleasure!
 
In "ERIE LACKAWANNA: DEATH OF AN AMERICAN RAILROAD", there is a reproduction of a 1956 ERIE announcement, showing a cartoon conductor announcing:
 
"WE'RE CHANGING STATIONS!"
 
This was dated October 13, 1956.
 
Soon, with the exception of NORTHERN BRANCH and NYS&W commuters, ERIE patrons would now be detraining at Hoboken, and using the Barclay St. ferries (and the H&M) to reach Manhattan destinations.
 
On a sidenote, when most ERIE trains were shifted up to Hoboken, the side platform in the H&M station at Pavonia Avenue was closed off, as was most of the underground ERIE concourse, which enabled ERIE passengers direct connections to each of the terminal's platforms from the H&M, which had two entrances located on each ERIE platform.
 
The ferries were far more accessible at Hoboken at rush hours than at Jersey City, with commuters utilizing the upper level concourse, seperating them entirely from the vehicular traffic entering and leaving the boats.
 
The ERIE terminal at Pavonia Avenue had never been equipped for upper level ferry loading, although ERIE boats COULD load/unload from the upper level at the W.23rd St. terminal in Manhattan, which the ERIE stopped using in 1942........
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:08pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #16 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 10:17pm »
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Here is an interior view of the elevated trolley terminal at Hoboken, about 1910.
 
Here, until 1949, trolley passengers could make direct connections with not only the DL&W trains, but also, the ferries and the H&M.
 
This long-gone facility changed very little throughout the years.
 
Note "UNION HILL" reading on the streetcar's destination sign; at that time (1910), and, until about 1925, UNION HILL and WEST HOBOKEN were two seperate towns.
 
The two towns merged and became UNION CITY, which, incidently, is my hometown.
 
The section of Union City where we lived (until 1971) was originally WEST HOBOKEN.
 
The trolleys were replaced by buses in 1949, and the terminal and elevated trestle were torn down, the last section coming down in 1950.......
 
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?116243
 
(photo courtesy of the George Conrad colection)


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #17 on: Dec 23rd, 2012, 10:24pm »
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A PSNJ trolley about to enter the elevated terminal at Hoboken, around 1949.
 
The DL&W terminal sheds are visible on the left; in the background, note the building with the "LACKAWANNA RAILROAD" sign painted on.
 
This was also used by RAILWAY EXPRESS, and remained a very busy facilty, until the later 1960's.
 
The BALLENTINE BEER billboard on its roof further dates this timeless scene.
 
This sprawling brick building perished in a huge fire in the early 80's; not a trace of it remains today......
 
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?116232
 
(photo courtesy of George Conrad collection)


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2012, 11:06pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #18 on: Dec 24th, 2012, 1:27am »
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All:
 
In 1910, the new DL&W Hoboken terminal was ahead of its time in a number of ways.
 
For example, the terminal housed the very first central air cooling system in the United States; huge fans blew over huge blocks of ice, and the cooled air was then forced through a complex system of ducts, where it was then directed to interior spaces such as the waiting room and ferry concourses.
 
It was also the site of the first wireless telephone operation, between Hoboken and Manhattan.......
 
"H.F.M."
 


« Last Edit: Dec 24th, 2012, 1:41am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Hoboken, 1910
 
« Reply #19 on: Dec 24th, 2012, 1:34am »
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Further proof that the DL&W was light-years ahead of its time; this fascinating, illustrated article (by Charles Frederick Carter) dates to 1914.......
 
http://earlyradiohistory.us/1914trn.htm
 
See also (courtesy of Antique Radio Service)......
 
http://www.everythingradio.com/Marconi%20Tower.htm


« Last Edit: Dec 24th, 2012, 1:40am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
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