Railfan.net Home Railfan Photos ABPR Archives Staff Safari Photos Railfan Links

Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please Sign In or Register. Nov 20th, 2017, 9:40pm
Categories •  FastIndex •  LongIndex •  Help •  Search •  Members  •  Sign In •  Register


Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
   Railfan.net Web Forums
   Fallen Flags
   The Lackawanna
(Moderators: Flemington Flyer, Charlie Ricker)
   Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint
   Author  Topic: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion  (Read 1357 times)
XPLORER
Historian
Posts: 699
Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
  Lackawanna_Map-post.jpg - 161893 Bytes
« on: Mar 27th, 2006, 6:10pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Jim this is the map for the research post.


Image exceeds display size of 900 pixels wide. (161893 bytes, 952x501 pixels)


Click Here to View Image Lackawanna_Map-post.jpg - 161893 Bytes


« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2006, 2:35am by XPLORER » Logged
hummel1237
Historian
Posts: 4885
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
  DLW_system.jpg - 152863 Bytes
« Reply #1 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 5:46pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

I'd like to thank XPLORER for his great interest, research and help! GREAT JOB!  
 
Hope you don't mind the re-title...
 
I like the fact that you can "zoom" the map. Also, I thought this would be a good place to field system questions, direction information, row locations and Lackawanna geography (and related subjects) in general...
 
Feel free to post any and all related Lackawanna maps (aerial, hand drawn, etc.) - it can only help...
 
Here's a map link as well -  
 
http://historical.maptech.com/
 
Jim...


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/Lackawanna/DLW_system.jpg
Click Image to Resize

« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2006, 4:42pm by hummel1237 » Logged
XPLORER
Historian
Posts: 699
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
  post_pic.jpg - 21017 Bytes
« Reply #2 on: Mar 29th, 2006, 9:06am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Jim,
No need for thank you but Thank You to you and John.  
 
The rename is fine and better than what I had. I just slapped it in there so you could find it and use it how you saw fit. We all put a lot of work/research/gas money/etc into our threads and I hope to see others do the same.  
 
When complete maybe this group of threads could be the equivalent to volume 4 of the Taber books."The Lackawanna" (By the Fans). Sounds cool Huh?  
 
Anywho! Jim, I would like you to proof the map and I would like to periodically delete it and update it as threads are created and stickied and repost it in the same posting. I Color Coded the B&P division and if I have it right I would like to Balloon Tag it. I did not do anything with the M&E because I am not sure of the start and end points but I would like to since you have it stickied. Please advise.
 
To others who read these posts and live near a section, follow Jim's guide lines and get to posting. This is a class board with class threads and fans. It is nice to get on here and pay tribute to a class railroad such as the Lackawanna.  
RR †


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/Lackawanna/post_pic.jpg
Click Image to Resize

« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2006, 2:39am by XPLORER » Logged
hummel1237
Historian
Posts: 4885
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #3 on: Mar 30th, 2006, 12:14pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Mar 29th, 2006, 9:06am, XPLORER wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Hummel,
No need for thank you but Thank you to you and EMD.  
 
The rename is fine and better than what I had. I just slapped it in there so you could find it and use it how you saw fit. We all put a lot of work/research/gas money into our threads and I hope to see others do the same.  
 
If when complete maybe this group of threads could be the equivalent to volume 4 of the Taber books."The Lackawanna" (By the Fans). Sounds cool Huh?  
 
Anywho! Hummel, I would like you to proof the map and I would like to periodically delete it and update it as threads are created and stickied and repost it in the same Posting. I Color coded the B&P division and if I have it right I would like to Balloon tag it. I did not do anything with the M&E because I am not sure of the start and end points but I would like to since you have it stickied. Please advise.
 
To others who read these posts and live near a section, follow Hummel's guide lines and get to posting. This is a class board with class threads and fans. It is nice to get on here and pay tribute to a class railroad such as the Lackawanna.  
RR †

 
I agree - The Lackawanna was a class act...
 
Looking forward to the new threads...
 
Jim...  


Logged
Erie3319
Railfan
Posts: 150
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
  DLW_Lines_Owned.jpg - 141413 Bytes
« Reply #4 on: Apr 14th, 2006, 5:22pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Here is a synopsis of DL&W Lines Owned, Leased and Operated as of June 1920.  I was going to post this on the Morris & Essex thread, but it seems to make more sense here.  The corporate identity of each of the lines and its mileage are shown.

http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/Lackawanna/DLW_Lines_Owned.jpg
Click Image to Resize

Logged
hummel1237
Historian
Posts: 4885
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #5 on: Apr 15th, 2006, 6:32pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Apr 14th, 2006, 5:22pm, Erie3319 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Here is a synopsis of DL&W Lines Owned, Leased and Operated as of June 1920. †I was going to post this on the Morris & Essex thread, but it seems to make more sense here. †The corporate identity of each of the lines and its mileage are shown.

 
Awesome! Great info!!!
 
Jim...  
 
 


Logged
XPLORER
Historian
Posts: 699
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #6 on: Apr 18th, 2006, 8:16pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Apr 14th, 2006, 5:22pm, Erie3319 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Here is a synopsis of DL&W Lines Owned, Leased and Operated as of June 1920. †I was going to post this on the Morris & Essex thread, but it seems to make more sense here. †The corporate identity of each of the lines and its mileage are shown.

 
Erie,
Thank you for your post. In my area of expertice this raises some interesting questions. On the H&N branch it sounds like they refered to it as one line with 2 branches of its own. †I have seen on system maps where they call an area the Auchincloss Junction but it is more than a mile from the Auchincloss colliery area. I could only assume the Warrior Run branch went to the Truesdale area. The original H&N Branch went to Auchincloss Colliery I assume this is the first part of the listing. The point of my blabber here is I have seen how the Railroads had their way with putting names to areas with out any consideration for the natives. The LV did the same thing in Warrior Run. This town had †a documented name of Plumbton when the LV came to town but they named the station Warrior Run to match the name of the breaker they built so the towns people changed the name of the town to match the station. †Anybody else see any odd references in thier areas of the know? Things that make you go HMMM! † The other cool thing about this document to me is the fact it is pre Glen Alden Coal Co. The Lackawanna is at its peak at this point in time.
Rick


« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2006, 2:44am by XPLORER » Logged
Erie3319
Railfan
Posts: 150
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #7 on: Apr 21st, 2006, 8:24pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Apr 18th, 2006, 8:16pm, XPLORER wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
The point of my blabber here is I have seen how the Railroads had there way with putting names to areas with out any consideration for the natives.  
Anybody else see any odd references in thier areas of the know? Things that make you go HMMM! † The other cool thing about this document it is pre glen alden coal co. The Lackawanna it at its peak at this point in time.
Rick

Rick,
Glad you enjoyed the post! †Railroad history on the ground is full of the kind of mysteries and anomolies you mention. †Any study of coalfields railroading is bound full of all sorts of changes to places and lines. †I like to compare anthracite mine railroads to logging railroads--both followed the source of a temporary supply wherever it went. †Once the supply played out, be it timber or coal, the line was ripped out. †The anthracite lines have the disadvantage in that they are in a territory where the industry is accustomed to moving the earth itself, with the result that even the abandoned roadbeds are eradicated. †The rights of way of the loggers can still be found in the forest a century after their demise. †Your H&N seems to be something of an exception in that you can still find it. †The way the mines played out, were abandoned, and then replaced by new operations only adds to the fun. †
 
At the time of its formal transfer to the Lackawanna on July1, 1909, the H&N recorded a length of 6.81 miles, rather than the 8 and change shown above, so in the intervening eleven years there were some line changes.  If I can find some of my old DL&W annual reports, I bet we can find other differences to further complicate matters.
 
Mark


« Last Edit: Apr 21st, 2006, 8:29pm by Erie3319 » Logged
hummel1237
Historian
Posts: 4885
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #8 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 1:16pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Great stuff guys!
 
I'd like to see if we can sort the facts from fiction as it will greatly increase the ease of our study and research...
 
True or False:
 
1. Any railroad that built and owned a bridge used said bridge? † T or F
 
2. Connection points had two yards - one for the host road on their own ROW and one for the visiting RR near the host road on their own ROW? T or F
 
 †#1 seems like common sense but some fans will not agree. Case in point; The original B&P (Conrad Miller) built the Martins Creek Bridge to merge with the Bel Del and L&HR (eventually PRR) to connect passengers from the B&Ps service areas to Trenton NJ/Philadelphia PA. This means the B&P actually terminated at Brainards NJ (called Martins Creek NJ by the B&P). So, the B&P went to NJ and that is a fact. The Warren Railroad (John Blair) built the Portland Bridge to connect with The Lackawanna and not the other way around. In 1853 these two roads were allowed to merge and The Warren built the bridge to connect to The Lackawanna. The Warren Railroad must have crossed this bridge into Portland Pennsylvania if the True or False question is in fact - True. According to what I'm reading The Lackawanna was allowed a right of way to five miles below the Delaware Water Gap and when the merge to The Warren was approved The Lackawanna and Western became The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western. About five miles below The Delaware Water Gap puts us at Cobbs Gap but I don't know where that is at the moment. The area just off The Warren Bridge on the Pa side I don't think is Cobbs Gap because that is more than five miles from The Delaware Water Gap if my figures are correct. Why would you build a bridge you're not going to use. If that was the case to simply connect The Lackawanna to The Warren then why didn't The lackawanna build the bridge. John Blair wasn't stupid and was also strapped for cash during those years ('53 to '56).  
 
 †#2 seems to be a True answer to me as well. The host and the visitor have yards close to each other. Unless someone can prove otherwise...
 
Here's a fun fact I just found out - Did you know the PRR ran The Lackawanna from Manunka Chunk NJ to East Stroudsburg PA (Dansbury Depot) for passenger P&D? According to what I just read, The PRR ran that section of The Lackawanna Olde Route...
 
Just fact finding...
 
Jim... †


« Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2006, 1:33pm by hummel1237 » Logged
Erie3319
Railfan
Posts: 150
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #9 on: Apr 22nd, 2006, 8:16pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Jim,
 
I suppose one could answer your questions with the following railroad maxim: "If any operation is conceiveably possible, it must have happened at least once."
 
As a general rule, any railroad that built a bridge tended to operate it for its own benefit and to the exclusion of all others, unless trackage rights or some sort of joint or union station arrangement were involved.  Another interesting anomaly in the same neighborhood is the South Easton and Phillipsburg Railroad, which owned the Lehigh and Hudson River Railway's bridge over the Delaware at P'burg.  The SE&P was its own company, but was controlled by the L&H.  They built a bridge but didn't operate it.
 
The second part of your question is true much more often than the bridge scenario.  It was, and probably still is, not uncommon for interchanging railroads each to own their own yards or trackage near each other.  The L&H at P'burg is again a case in point, owning Hudson yard on the PRR's Bel-Del, at the interchange with the Lehigh Valley and the CNJ.  Of course, the fact that all these companies held substantial interests in the L&H helped this situation, but it can be found elsewhere as well.
 
Mark


Logged
hummel1237
Historian
Posts: 4885
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #10 on: Apr 24th, 2006, 4:58pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Apr 22nd, 2006, 8:16pm, Erie3319 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Jim,
 
I suppose one could answer your questions with the following railroad maxim: "If any operation is conceiveably possible, it must have happened at least once."
 
As a general rule, any railroad that built a bridge tended to operate it for its own benefit and to the exclusion of all others, unless trackage rights or some sort of joint or union station arrangement were involved. †Another interesting anomaly in the same neighborhood is the South Easton and Phillipsburg Railroad, which owned the Lehigh and Hudson River Railway's bridge over the Delaware at P'burg. †The SE&P was its own company, but was controlled by the L&H. †They built a bridge but didn't operate it.
 
The second part of your question is true much more often than the bridge scenario. †It was, and probably still is, not uncommon for interchanging railroads each to own their own yards or trackage near each other. †The L&H at P'burg is again a case in point, owning Hudson yard on the PRR's Bel-Del, at the interchange with the Lehigh Valley and the CNJ. †Of course, the fact that all these companies held substantial interests in the L&H helped this situation, but it can be found elsewhere as well.
 
Mark

 
Thanks! Good responses! I was looking for absolutes but should have known railroading (like music) has a lot of exceptions...
 
Jim...  


Logged
hummel1237
Historian
Posts: 4885
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #11 on: Apr 30th, 2006, 8:15pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Curious Question;
 
Who currently operates the most former Lackawanna trackage? NS?  
 
Just wondering...
 
Jim...


Logged
hummel1237
Historian
Posts: 4885
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #12 on: Jun 20th, 2006, 6:29pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Another thing I'm wondering; How can I paint an acurate picture of all the trackage (sidings, double and triple mains, yard layouts, etc.) of the former Lackawanna? Is there a trackage map (not a row map) or documents to read over?
 
Jim...  


Logged
Flemington Flyer
Moderator
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 3198
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #13 on: Jun 20th, 2006, 10:28pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Apr 30th, 2006, 8:15pm, hummel1237 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Curious Question;
 
Who currently operates the most former Lackawanna trackage? NS?  
 
Just wondering...
 
Jim...

 
Jim -
 
I think it's a toss up with NJT, but maybe Shared Assets? Or isn't that a separate entity anymore (can you tell I don't give a hoot about modern railroading and railfanning anymore?)
 
CF


Logged

One down, one to go.......
Flemington Flyer
Moderator
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 3198
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #14 on: Jun 20th, 2006, 10:40pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jun 20th, 2006, 6:29pm, hummel1237 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Another thing I'm wondering; How can I paint an acurate picture of all the trackage (sidings, double and triple mains, yard layouts, etc.) of the former Lackawanna? Is there a trackage map (not a row map) or documents to read over?
 
Jim... †:o

 
Jim -
 
If I am to understand you correctly, are you wanting to be able to post such a map/drawing here, or, is this just for your own better understanding of the railroad at home? The problem being, is that what you are looking for are railroad valuation maps (commonly known as val maps), as these are the only maps that will give you the detail you seek, unless someone draws a detailed map (like the ones you see accompyaning articles in Trains/MR or RMC/R&R) baed on a location. These maps can be found in places like the Steamtown archives, the Pennsylvania State Railroad Museum, and the like. Some people have them in their own private collections, too. The problem is, they are usually very large (I have some LV ones, and they are at least 4 feet long by 2 feet wide), so scanning them is next to impossible.  
However, like I said, they are not impossible to view, but you need to know what and when you want to look at, plan your trip to the appropriate archive accordingly, and be willing to spend some serious time and maybe money getting what you want.
And then, sometimes, the one map you want to see has been lost to the ages! But I do believe the Lackawanna has one of the better preserved historical collections, even if it has been scattered to the winds.
Hope this helps you out some,  
 
CF


Logged

One down, one to go.......
hummel1237
Historian
Posts: 4885
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #15 on: Jul 4th, 2006, 8:35am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jun 20th, 2006, 10:40pm, CAR FLOATER wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Jim -
 
If I am to understand you correctly, are you wanting to be able to post such a map/drawing here, or, is this just for your own better understanding of the railroad at home? The problem being, is that what you are looking for are railroad valuation maps (commonly known as val maps), as these are the only maps that will give you the detail you seek, unless someone draws a detailed map (like the ones you see accompyaning articles in Trains/MR or RMC/R&R) baed on a location. These maps can be found in places like the Steamtown archives, the Pennsylvania State Railroad Museum, and the like. Some people have them in their own private collections, too. The problem is, they are usually very large (I have some LV ones, and they are at least 4 feet long by 2 feet wide), so scanning them is next to impossible.  
However, like I said, they are not impossible to view, but you need to know what and when you want to look at, plan your trip to the appropriate archive accordingly, and be willing to spend some serious time and maybe money getting what you want.
And then, sometimes, the one map you want to see has been lost to the ages! But I do believe the Lackawanna has one of the better preserved historical collections, even if it has been scattered to the winds.
Hope this helps you out some,  
 
CF

 
Thanks! Old pics are helping as well...
 
Jim...  :)


Logged
Matthew_L
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 7885
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #16 on: Sep 3rd, 2006, 11:47am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jun 20th, 2006, 10:28pm, CAR FLOATER wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Jim -
 
I think it's a toss up with NJT, but maybe Shared Assets? Or isn't that a separate entity anymore (can you tell I don't give a hoot about modern railroading and railfanning anymore?)
 
CF

 
NJT would be my guess. NS doesn't own much Lackawanna trackage- just a few miles in Buffalo, part of the Southern Tier and some of the former EL in northern NJ.  
   


Logged

Best wishes to all,
Matthew L

moderator- D&H, Erie Lackawanna/Erie and LA&L/B&H/WNYP

P.S. All aboard for the last train to Hammondsport!
scottychaos
Historian
Posts: 1342
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #17 on: Nov 8th, 2006, 8:46am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

CP owns Scranton to Binghamton = 60 miles.
 
NS owns Binghamton to Vestal = 9 miles.
 
Bath & Hammondsport owns Painted Post to Wayland = 40 miles.
 
Rochester & Southern owns Groveland station to Greigsville = 15 miles.
 
Depew, Lancaster & Western owns a mile or two near Depew.
 
Im not sure how much, if any, DL&W trackage exists around Buffalo.
(but im going to figure it out!   )
 
I have no idea how much DL&W trackage NJT runs..can anyone figure it out?
I just used Google maps to "get directions" between the towns in question, that gives a close estimate for RR mileage.
 
Scot


« Last Edit: Nov 8th, 2006, 8:54am by scottychaos » Logged
scottychaos
Historian
Posts: 1342
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #18 on: Nov 8th, 2006, 8:49am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

I just started a thread for a tour of Binghamton to Buffalo:
 
http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=Lackawanna;action=display;num=1162924197
 
thanks,
Scot


Logged
XPLORER
Historian
Posts: 699
Re: Lackawanna System Research Map and Discussion
 
« Reply #19 on: Dec 12th, 2006, 2:54am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

I feel tardy and neglectful here. I just went through Scots Bing to Buf thread this morning. What a great thread.  
 
Jim any chance you could rearrange the stickies to have The Scranton to Bing thread first then Scotís then  group them West/East/other reading downward? Jim once again this was a great idea. I wish the other Fallen Flags moderators/members would take the time to do this type of thing.
 
I think I will re-think the map in post 1. Any suggestions?
Rick  


Logged
Pages: 1 2  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint

« Previous topic | Next topic »