Railfan.net Home Railfan Photos ABPR Archives Staff Safari Photos Railfan Links

Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please Sign In or Register. Mar 26th, 2017, 9:01am
Categories •  FastIndex •  LongIndex •  Help •  Search •  Members  •  Sign In •  Register


LV freight info
   Railfan.net Web Forums
   Fallen Flags
   Lehigh Valley
(Moderators: Flemington Flyer, pontiac59, Charlie Ricker, LehighValley107)
   LV freight info
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint
   Author  Topic: LV freight info  (Read 11294 times)
Rich Chapin
Enthusiast
Posts: 38
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #120 on: Jul 9th, 2012, 8:23pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Scot,
The period when the LV started containers in Jan 1928, was before PRR got its interest in the LV [via the D&H's failed efforts to establish itself as a trunk line, which was later in 1928, but that's another long topic] and at that tie JP Morgan banking interests owned both LV and NYC stock. It also predates the PRR's own container service.  
 
 The LV was the second major road to use LCL Containers--when you think about it, it could be a publicity shot taken anywhere. Anyway, I'm trying to locate that photo and eliminating possiblilites, such as Rochester, due to the lack of connection and type of crane [the one in the "barge" photos appeared to be an truss, while I'm looking for a girder] is very helpful and appreciated.
 
The actual photo comes from the Andrew Merilees collection, which I found at the National Archives of Canada. No, don't really know anything on Merilees or how his photos wound up there.


Logged

Rich Chapin
Rich Chapin
Enthusiast
Posts: 38
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #121 on: Jul 9th, 2012, 8:48pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

So, where was this Clarissa St yard in relation to the Barge canal? Sorry, I know very little of Rochester geography and google maps wasn't too much help.
And the description doesn't fit the crane in the Railway Age, but it does indicate that yard as a possible point for the container operations.
 


Logged

Rich Chapin
scottychaos
Historian
Posts: 1341
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #122 on: Jul 9th, 2012, 10:30pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Rich, the LV yard and the Barge Terminal were both on the East side of the Genesee River..between the Clarissa street bridge to the south (Today the Ford Street Bridge)
and "downtown" to the North..Genesee River to the West, Mount Hope ave to the East.
 
The LV's Rochester passenger depot was at the far northern end of LV track, at the far north end of the yard..(The LV depot still stands today, and is in use as the Dinosaur BBQ Restaurant!
 
Technically the River was part of the "barge canal" at this time..the actual canal crossed over the Genesee river "at grade" further south.
 
Erie railroad was on the West side of the River..
 
Found a good map, that actually shows the crane!
I cant post the direct link, because library links always time-out..
so I will describe how to find it:
 
Go here: http://www3.libraryweb.org/lh.aspx?id=941
click "Search the Rochester Images database"
under keywords, search for, "Plat map Hamilton" without the quotes.
the second map (map #2) shows a detailed map of the lower terminal in 1935.
 
Do a search for "Plat map comfort" without the quotes, to go further North,
the "middle" portion of the LV yard and Barge terminal..
Map #1 shows the big Barge terminal building in the photos above,
right next to the river, and the big LV Freight house.
 
Then do "Plat map Court" without the quotes to go to the far north end,
and the LV passenger depot..map #3.
 
Today not a shred of the Barge terminal, or the LV, exists along the river..
you would never know any of it had ever been there..not a trace.
only the LV passenger station still exists at the north end..
Today a TV studio exists where the LV turntable and freight house once stood.
apartments are further south..a biking trail exists up the edge of the river, right through the middle of where the Barge terminal building once stood..
The Erie on the west bank of the river is equally utterly wiped out..not a trace.
 
Here is the modern scene, centered on the LV turntable:
http://binged.it/OTkVzY
 
Scot
 
 
 
 


Logged
Rich Chapin
Enthusiast
Posts: 38
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #123 on: Jul 10th, 2012, 6:15am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Scot,
FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On run today, more later.


Logged

Rich Chapin
vtm
Chaser
Posts: 88
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #124 on: Jul 10th, 2012, 8:18am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

It was the subject of a "Model Trains" article complete with plans and photographs in a circa 1961 issue, which I no longer have. I am guessing here that it could have been a Harold Russell article. I am sure those pictures must be in the Kalmbach files some where. I had the issue as a kid living outside of DC at the time.  
 
When we moved to NYS in 1962-3 I was finally able to see it in person, albeit from a distance going down South Ave; or across the then Clarissa St bridge. Heading north on South the top of it was visible above the clutter of buildings then at the intersection and an adjacent scrap yard along South.  
 
It was wide enough to accommodate one track and adjacent drive area so it would have been sufficient to handle LCL containers. Believe it had a 25 Ton capacity, whatever it was it was prominently displayed, along with "LEHIGH VALLEY" in large block letters in typical LV fashion. The letters faced south (based on personal observation) and presumably also appeared on the north face (I do not recall seeing the north side, it too could have been visible heading south on South Ave).  
 
I would say that it was gone by 1966 or so during the gradual retirement of railroad and industrial facilities in this area.
 
As for Andrew Merillees, he was a Canadian railway equipment dealer who traded railway equipment in North America during the 50's-70's. I met him once or twice but until now really never knew he was a collector.
 
VTM
 


Logged
TBiery

Posts: 75
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #125 on: Jul 10th, 2012, 4:55pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

The freight house pictured in William T Hoops article is very similar to the LV Buffalo freight house.   It was located at the corner of Washington and Scott St.   The freight terminal boasted a 40 ton crane traveling 148 feet longitudinaly and could service four cars at a time according to an old article.  
 
Tom Biery


Logged
Rich Chapin
Enthusiast
Posts: 38
Re: LV freight info Rochester Maps Buffalo Freight House etc
 
« Reply #126 on: Jul 11th, 2012, 9:26am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Tom,
Thanks for the comment. Where was that "old article" you mention? I'd like to track it down. Please let me know any additional info that could let me do that.
Scot,
The maps you found are great!. The crane's track-road configuration is exactly what is expected for a crane transfering containers between a railcar and a truck.  
 
VMT,
I'm seeing if the NMRA library has that article and will let you know what I find. Great Info!
 
Many Thanks to all !!!
Rich Chapin


Logged

Rich Chapin
Matthew_L
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 7802
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #127 on: Jul 11th, 2012, 8:37pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jul 9th, 2012, 7:43pm, scottychaos wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Rich, I dont believe the LV and the NYC had any sort of "shared" facilities in Rochester at all..unless they both had access to the Subway..(I know LV and BR&P/B&O both accessed the subway tracks to serve some customers, but im not sure if NYC did..)

 
Freight on the subway was jointly operated by LV, BR&P/B&O, NYC/PC and Erie/EL.  
 
 
 
on Jul 9th, 2012, 7:43pm, scottychaos wrote:       (Click here for original message)
But I am sure LV never ran any trains all the way over to the NYC Goodman street yard..LV and NYC had no direct "interchange" type of connection in Rochester..

 
They didn't interchange in downtown Rochester but what about Genesee Junction in Chili or the yards in geneva? Is it possible that NYC had a haulage agreement with LV to reach Wilkes Barre?  


Logged

Best wishes to all,
Matthew L

moderator- D&H, Erie Lackawanna/Erie and LA&L/B&H/WNYP

P.S. All aboard for the last train to Hammondsport!
TB_Diamond
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 994
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #128 on: Jul 11th, 2012, 9:54pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

The LVRR did, in fact, interchange with the Penn Central in the Rochester LVRR yard. Have some slides that show the PC delivering cars to the LV in Rochester.  
 
In addition, one summer evening back in the late 1960s I personally observed a PC job come across the Genesee River on the Broad St. bridge and enter the LVRR yard.
 
The LVRR did not have access to the Genesee Jct. area.


Logged

Look homeward, angel- Thomas Wolfe
TBiery

Posts: 75
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #129 on: Jul 11th, 2012, 11:39pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Rich:
Regarding the LV container crane in Buffalo.  I am listing both sources of info which may shed some light. THe Buffalo structure is very similar to the William T Hoops article. Tom  
 
See page 448:
 
http://wnyheritagepress.org/photos_week_2008/lehigh_valley_terminal/railway_age1916_lv.pdf
 
Two views of the freight house are found in this article.  
 
http://wnyheritagepress.org/photos_week_2008/lehigh_valley_terminal/lehigh_valley_terminal.htm
 
I am continuing my search for other photos.


Logged
Rich Chapin
Enthusiast
Posts: 38
Re: LV freight info Buffalo Terminal Crane
 
« Reply #130 on: Jul 12th, 2012, 4:01pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Tom,
I took a look at the original photograph of that container crane. It says "Whiting 10 tons" on the overhead crane that is lifting that LCL container.  
Rich


Logged

Rich Chapin
TBiery

Posts: 75
Re: LV freight info Buffalo Terminal Crane
 
« Reply #131 on: Jul 12th, 2012, 4:54pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jul 12th, 2012, 4:01pm, Rich Chapin wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Tom,
I took a look at the original photograph of that container crane. It says "Whiting 10 tons" on the overhead crane that is lifting that LCL container.  
Rich

 
Your point is well taken.  The article mentioned a 40 ton capacity crane installed at Buffalo.  THe photo shows 10 ton. That would be a very large capacity even in a locomotive shop.   The crane in the article  operated off a rail built into the freight house wall. That is really neat !  
If not Buffalo where else would one look to find a substantial brick freight office with attached brick freight shed.  I have looked over an over online and in all the LV books in my library. I could find nothing to help.
I think this is still open for discussion.  The Buffalo photos on the website show a similar brick building on the west side of the downtown LV passenger terminal.  But the photos lack the close details we need to make a difinative answer.   TOM


« Last Edit: Jul 12th, 2012, 5:02pm by TBiery » Logged
Rich Chapin
Enthusiast
Posts: 38
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #132 on: Jul 12th, 2012, 5:07pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Here is the link to the 30 ton crane at LV freight station in Wilkes Barre
 
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lv_freight3.jpg
 
So, the Railway Age photo isn't Wilkes Barre, and isn't Rochester [based on layout on map Scot posted,which shows a free standing crane] and doesn't appear to be Buffalo, based on the size of the crane in the photo [but, could the crane have been changed between 1916 and late 1927/early 1928? I'd have to say sure, could have, but how would one confirm/deny that?]
 
This seems to leave Newark.
 
Rich


Logged

Rich Chapin
Henry
Historian
Posts: 6065
Re: LV freight info
  LV_Buffalo_FreightHouse-RwyReview_01-15-1916.jpg - 62961 Bytes
« Reply #133 on: Jul 12th, 2012, 5:44pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

It sure looks like Buffalo to me. The track layout matches the three tracks by the platform and the next closest angling away from the freight house.
 
Here's a decent shot of the freight house in 1916 from google books in the January 15, 1916 Railway Review.
 
That building looks like the crane photo posted earlier. Unless Newark was identical to Buffalo, I don't know what to say...
 
Unfortunately the article only says that an electric crane is located at a convenient location in the yard.
 
Henry


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LV/LV_Buffalo_FreightHouse-RwyReview_01-15-1916.jpg
Click Image to Resize

Logged
Rich Chapin
Enthusiast
Posts: 38
Re: LV freight info Buffalo
 
« Reply #134 on: Jul 12th, 2012, 6:54pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

It sure looks like Buffalo to me. The track layout matches the three tracks by the platform and the next closest angling away from the freight house.
 
 
Henry,
I agree that it's Buffalo. Took a look at the actual photo. Enlarging it shows the same architecture above the windows and the same 3 panel windows. No crane, but that might just be when the photo taken.
Rich
& thanks for the article


Logged

Rich Chapin
firstbelt
Historian
Posts: 707
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #135 on: Jul 13th, 2012, 1:02pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

... edited: the Rochester Barge Canal crane stood until at least 1973, when I took some photos.  NRHS Director HP told me it was the LV crane.
 
=====
 
Found this map of the LV Bronx Terminal with a gantry crane:
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/lvbxt.html#Warehouse


« Last Edit: Jul 16th, 2012, 8:18pm by firstbelt » Logged
TB_Diamond
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 994
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #136 on: Jul 13th, 2012, 9:36pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

The photo does not depict the Lehigh Valley Railroad Rochester yard overhead crane.
 
 It does, however, depict the NYS Barge Canal Terminal overhead crane.
 
They were not one and the same.


Logged

Look homeward, angel- Thomas Wolfe
firstbelt
Historian
Posts: 707
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #137 on: Jul 16th, 2012, 8:38pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jul 13th, 2012, 9:36pm, TB_Diamond wrote:       (Click here for original message)
The photo does not depict the Lehigh Valley Railroad Rochester yard overhead crane.
 It does, however, depict the NYS Barge Canal Terminal overhead crane.
...

 
That may explain why it was left around until 1973.  
 
The topic drifted from Rich Chapin's inquiry about LV LCL containers and a photo of an overhead crane.  The link above [http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/lvbxt.html#Warehouse ] showed a track plan with 2 sidings under a gantry crane, next to a wall - in this case, below "bridge approach E149th St."  That's the one I'd bet on, Rich.  Looks like it would fit the trackage in your photo.
 
I did some further searching, found this discussion on trains.com regarding LV and NYC LCL containers; it started off with cylindrical containers for transporting cement to New York City for construction.  There are a couple links to other web pages that may be worth looking into.
 
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/156787.aspx?PageIndex=2
 
"...lashup of F units hauling several of the Lehigh Valley's 95 unique gondolas which were equipped with pressurized air containers for moving dry bulk cement from eastern Pennsylvania to the New York Harbor."
from:
http://www.amazon.com/Lehigh-Valley-Railroad-across-Jersey/dp/0738565768
 
I also found a web site for the New York Harbor Railroad (model railroad).  There are some maps, etc maybe worth looking into:
http://www.nyhrr.com/Overview.htm


« Last Edit: Jul 16th, 2012, 8:45pm by firstbelt » Logged
Flemington Flyer
Moderator
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 3198
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #138 on: Jul 16th, 2012, 10:07pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Firstbelt, if I may......
 
Your first link is a webpage built upon the previously publised work of myself and David Pearce in the pages of Transfer, the journal of the Rail-Marine Information Group, back in 2006 or threreabout. Mr. Pearce and I have written the only extensive and authoritative history on the LVRR's E. 149th Street Bronx terminal. I can tell you, with much certainty, that the crane and the LCL operation, was NOT conducted at this yard.
 
Your second link from the Trains.com forums shows LCL cars that were used on the NYC and taken at the NYC's 30th Street yard on the west side of Manhattan (the yard that served the West Side Highline).
 
Your third link is a quote from my book, The Lehigh Valley Across New Jersey, published in 2009. These containers were lightered on open scows to wherever they were needed, and a crane like the one found at a yard like E. 149th Street, would not be able to get close enough to the bulkhead to be used to unload said scow.
 
And your fourth link is to my good friend Dave Ramos' HO scale layout featuring the LVRR's W. 27th Street Manhattan terminal whom I have helped research and construct. Now while LCL WAS handled here, we have yet to uncover any info on the use of these containers....Yet!
 
I look forward to learning more about the LV's LCL container traffic, as I'd like to model it myself.
 
RAH


Logged

One down, one to go.......
mtcg16
Historian
Posts: 775
Re: LV freight info
 
« Reply #139 on: Jul 18th, 2012, 7:55am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Would love to see those pictures TB!! on Jul 11th, 2012, 9:54pm, TB_Diamond wrote:       (Click here for original message)
The LVRR did, in fact, interchange with the Penn Central in the Rochester LVRR yard. Have some slides that show the PC delivering cars to the LV in Rochester.  
 
In addition, one summer evening back in the late 1960s I personally observed a PC job come across the Genesee River on the Broad St. bridge and enter the LVRR yard.
 
The LVRR did not have access to the Genesee Jct. area.



Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint

« Previous topic | Next topic »