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L&HR: Upper End
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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #80 on: Sep 29th, 2004, 12:18pm »
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NJ Transit heading to Hoboken.
 
Well, that's it for now. The second part of the trip will touch Greycourt, Girarde, Burnside, Hudson Jct.,  East Chester, Sugar Loaf, Lake, Wisner and Warwick......


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caboose9
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
 
« Reply #81 on: Sep 29th, 2004, 3:10pm »
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njvike said, "My first encounter next to the Welcome sign was this nicely restored Caboose."
 
 
This caboose is nicely cared for but it is NOT restored.  Roger


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S. Roger Kirkpatrick, Cortez, CO - Gateway to Mesa Verde National Park
njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
 
« Reply #82 on: Sep 29th, 2004, 3:17pm »
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on Sep 29th, 2004, 3:10pm, caboose9 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
njvike said, "My first encounter next to the Welcome sign was this nicely restored Caboose."
 
 
This caboose is nicely cared for but it is NOT restored.  Roger

 
 
Noted - Thank you


« Last Edit: Sep 29th, 2004, 3:30pm by njvike » Logged
Marty_Feldner
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #83 on: Sep 30th, 2004, 1:47am »
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Ken-
 
Addenda, and corrections...
 
The tracks you saw in Campbell Hall (it's Campbell Hall, an unincorporated hamlet in the Town of Hamptonburg- it's a New York thing) are NOT former L&HR; they were originally the Erie's Montgomery branch, and were double-tracked through here (the Campbell Hall station was about where the caboose is now).
 
The L&H line into Maybrook was east of here by a mile or two; on 207 it's now just a rough spot in the road (by a horse farm on the left) where the grade crossing was. Further north, on 208 east of Maybrook (heading towards Burnside), the road is on an overpass over the L&H ROW; no tracks left, but the right of way is clearly visible and unmistakable.
 
Prior to 1957 there was a LOT more in Campbell Hall than is evident now: what is now the NS/NJT/MTA mainline was the Erie's freight-only Graham Line (the original Erie main went through the center of Monroe, Greycourt, Chester, Goshen, and Middletown); paralleling the Graham line to the north was the O&W (if you follow Erie Street around from the caboose, it bears to the right twice; directly ahead of you at the first one was the O&W station- originally CNE&W; the O&W ROW went left to right, next to the road between there and the second turn, and crossed the Montgomery to the left at grade); the Montgomery continued north to (surprise) Montgomery; the line north of there was the NYC's Walkill Valley branch, through New Paltz to Kingston/Rondout (Campbell Hall was as close to Maybrook as the New York Central got); the Montgomery had a small interchange yard with the O&W north of the station. East of the O&W station, a line curved off to the northeast- that was the line into Maybrook. It was joined by a line from the Montgomery that branched off to the east above the diamond. This is the line that was used by the Erie, L&NE, and O&W into the Maybrook yard. I walked a lot of the area several years ago; if you didn't know what was here, you'd barely know anything was here.
 
The L&H was the only line that had its own ROW into the Maybrook yards. It passed under the Graham Line at E&J bridge, where the 'new' Hudson Junction was built. It crossed the O&W at Burnside, at grade.
 
When you drove into the Campbell Hall commuter station from Egbertson Road, the road you were on to the parking lot was built on the former 'Montgomery' right of way; it crossed the Graham Line at grade (a tower stood about where the shelter is now).  The L&NE only owned a ROW as far north as Pine Island; from there north they had trackage rights to Goshen on the Erie's Pine Island branch, and rights on the Montgomery branch from Goshen into Maybrook- and for the most part they were the only one to use the Erie's line from Pine Island to Campbell Hall. So, for a short distance you drove where the L&NE's FA's once trod.
 
The Maybrook yard itself was wholly a New Haven operation. I have no idea what the SPV reference to a 'WS' is all about- yet another reason to not trust references- even print references that are considered by some to be 'the bible'.
 
The only WS I'm aware of anywhere in the area was the old West Shore- part of the New York Central. And as I said, the NYC (Walkill Valley branch) didn't get any closer than Campbell Hall. And the Erie ended where it entered at the very southern end of the yard. So, for Maybrook, SPV is 0 for 0. Think about it...
 
Also in Maybrook, there's a Karate school by the village park and softball fields; it is the remnants of the old Railroad YMCA, where crews from all of the connecting roads layed over, and everyone ate.
 
Below, a grab shot I got at the Maybrook Museum. This Aerial view is a very large framed print over the desk as you enter (you have to get there; they're open Saturday and Sunday afternoons from May through October).
 
The view is looking south, from about where the lower end of the Yellow Freight yard is (it only occupies something like 1/4 to 1/5 of the railroad yard area- and you know how big Yellow is). At the far end of the yard, it splits like a fish tail. The line to the left is the L&HR to Burnside, the one to the right is the Erie to Campbell Hall, used by the Erie, L&NE, and O&W. Both overpasses on 208 are still there. Between the two lines, north of 208, are three houses that are still known by old timers as 'the L&H houses'- they were built by the L&H for housing Maybrook employees (minor officials? not real sure...) back when railroads did that sort of thing.


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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
 
« Reply #84 on: Sep 30th, 2004, 2:59pm »
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on Sep 30th, 2004, 1:47am, Marty_Feldner wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Ken-
 
Addenda, and corrections...
 
The tracks you saw in Campbell Hall (it's Campbell Hall, an unincorporated hamlet in the Town of Hamptonburg- it's a New York thing) are NOT former L&HR; they were originally the Erie's Montgomery branch, and were double-tracked through here (the Campbell Hall station was about where the caboose is now).
 
The L&H line into Maybrook was east of here by a mile or two; on 207 it's now just a rough spot in the road (by a horse farm on the left) where the grade crossing was. Further north, on 208 east of Maybrook (heading towards Burnside), the road is on an overpass over the L&H ROW; no tracks left, but the right of way is clearly visible and unmistakable.
 
Prior to 1957 there was a LOT more in Campbell Hall than is evident now: what is now the NS/NJT/MTA mainline was the Erie's freight-only Graham Line (the original Erie main went through the center of Monroe, Greycourt, Chester, Goshen, and Middletown); paralleling the Graham line to the north was the O&W (if you follow Erie Street around from the caboose, it bears to the right twice; directly ahead of you at the first one was the O&W station- originally CNE&W; the O&W ROW went left to right, next to the road between there and the second turn, and crossed the Montgomery to the left at grade); the Montgomery continued north to (surprise) Montgomery; the line north of there was the NYC's Walkill Valley branch, through New Paltz to Kingston/Rondout (Campbell Hall was as close to Maybrook as the New York Central got); the Montgomery had a small interchange yard with the O&W north of the station. East of the O&W station, a line curved off to the northeast- that was the line into Maybrook. It was joined by a line from the Montgomery that branched off to the east above the diamond. This is the line that was used by the Erie, L&NE, and O&W into the Maybrook yard. I walked a lot of the area several years ago; if you didn't know what was here, you'd barely know anything was here.
 
The L&H was the only line that had its own ROW into the Maybrook yards. It passed under the Graham Line at E&J bridge, where the 'new' Hudson Junction was built. It crossed the O&W at Burnside, at grade.
 
When you drove into the Campbell Hall commuter station from Egbertson Road, the road you were on to the parking lot was built on the former 'Montgomery' right of way; it crossed the Graham Line at grade (a tower stood about where the shelter is now).  The L&NE only owned a ROW as far north as Pine Island; from there north they had trackage rights to Goshen on the Erie's Pine Island branch, and rights on the Montgomery branch from Goshen into Maybrook- and for the most part they were the only one to use the Erie's line from Pine Island to Campbell Hall. So, for a short distance you drove where the L&NE's FA's once trod.
 
The Maybrook yard itself was wholly a New Haven operation. I have no idea what the SPV reference to a 'WS' is all about- yet another reason to not trust references- even print references that are considered by some to be 'the bible'.
 
The only WS I'm aware of anywhere in the area was the old West Shore- part of the New York Central. And as I said, the NYC (Walkill Valley branch) didn't get any closer than Campbell Hall. And the Erie ended where it entered at the very southern end of the yard. So, for Maybrook, SPV is 0 for 0. Think about it...
 
Also in Maybrook, there's a Karate school by the village park and softball fields; it is the remnants of the old Railroad YMCA, where crews from all of the connecting roads layed over, and everyone ate.
 
Below, a grab shot I got at the Maybrook Museum. This Aerial view is a very large framed print over the desk as you enter (you have to get there; they're open Saturday and Sunday afternoons from May through October).
 
The view is looking south, from about where the lower end of the Yellow Freight yard is (it only occupies something like 1/4 to 1/5 of the railroad yard area- and you know how big Yellow is). At the far end of the yard, it splits like a fish tail. The line to the left is the L&HR to Burnside, the one to the right is the Erie to Campbell Hall, used by the Erie, L&NE, and O&W. Both overpasses on 208 are still there. Between the two lines, north of 208, are three houses that are still known by old timers as 'the L&H houses'- they were built by the L&H for housing Maybrook employees (minor officials? not real sure...) back when railroads did that sort of thing.

 
Marty,
 
Thanks for keeping the thread accurate. Here's what I see in the Boyd and Antz book on Campbell Hall. On page 13, Campbell Hall is in red indicating that the L&HR made stops there and appears to have a dotted line giving me the impression that 1) the L&HR stopped there and 2) it might have owned the track there as well. I see a reference to the Erie, L&HR and the NYO&W; this is the year of 1890.
 
Also, I see that the map indicates a dotted line from Greycourt to Newburgh. Does this dotted line indicate that the L&HR shared the ROW with another RR? In this case the Erie?
 
 
 
Now, I move on to page 35 for the 1925 map and notice that Campbell Hall is no longer marked in Red but the Erie and O&W still meet there. So, when did L&HR actually stop there and why? Was Campbell Hall for just freight or passenger as well?
 
Regarding Maybrook, where is the ROW from the L&NE? Did it also stop here as well or was there a connection made with the ERIE somewhere before Maybrook or did it enter Maybrook and connect with the New Haven?
 
As far as Pine Island, I know the location but the map in Boyd's book makes no reference here for 1925. In 1890 Boyd's map shows the PP&B up to Pine Island.
 
Here's where the confusion continues. As mentioned before, the Boyd book makes  reference to the Pine Island location on the 1890 map but with no junction being there. However, the SPV map does show Pine Island Junction and labels it the Erie and L&NE but doesn't show which RR proceeds north from there but now you have clarified that for me - Thanks.
 
I still don't know what the WS RR or designation is but I'm still investigating it and will report back when I know for sure.
 
Ken
 


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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
 
« Reply #85 on: Sep 30th, 2004, 3:00pm »
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BTW, Nice picture.

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Marty_Feldner
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #86 on: Sep 30th, 2004, 10:58pm »
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Looking at the maps in question, I can see where the confusion arises (particularly the 1890 map).
 
Part of the problem in interpreting the map is that Jim actually included several iterations of the still-building L&HR.
 
(An aside first: the PP&B was a predecessor to the L&NE, the Pennsylvania, Poughkeepsie & Boston (an indicator of the grandiose schemes prompted by the opening of the Poughkeepsie Bridge in 1889).
 
The original Warwick Valley Railroad (ca. 1860 to 1880) only extended from Main St. Warwick to the Erie at Greycourt- it was just one of many 'feeder' lines to the Erie being built around that time, and the primary cargo was agricultural products. I've never seen documentary evidence, but it wouldn't at all surprise me if the Erie (at least in the background) supplied some major backing to the fledgling enterprise, both monetarily and in engineering expertise. Until about 1880, it was built to the Erie's 6 foot gauge, and utilised Erie equipment and motive power. In fact (see pg. 8) it was carried on Erie timetables as the Warwick Branch. Passenger trains ran through from Newburgh to Warwick (notice the 20+ minute layover at 'Chesterville'- later Greycourt). This is the source of the 'dotted line' reference to the Newburgh Branch. Before the bridge (before Railroads, in fact) Newburgh- Beacon (Fishkill) cross-river was the principle gateway to and from southern New England. This is why the Newburgh Branch was the earliest one built by the Erie (1849, I believe).
 
When the Poughkeepsie Bridge did open, it didn't take long for all of the cross-river ferry operation to give way to the all-rail bridge routing.
 
In anticipation, the Warwick Valley (by 1882, the L&HR, extending from Greycourt to Belvedere) backers chartered the Orange County Railroad, building north from Greycourt (actually, the 'real' Hudson Junction), north to Burnside and a connection with the O&W. Trackage rights were secured over the O&W to Campbell Hall, connecting to Maybrook and the bridge route there. That's the 'dotted line' from Burnside to CH. That arrangement didn't last long- the OCRR quickly moved to modify their charter to continue from Burnside to a direct connection at Maybrook (BK- what would become MP 0.0 of the completed L&HR).
 
What isn't clear from Jim's map is the arrangement at CH; the O&W (and L&H, by trackage rights) were north of, and separate from, what's there now; the L&H never used the tracks that cross 207. The map (below) shows the arrangement of the O&W/Erie (L&NE trackage rights)/CNE (later New Haven, later turned over to the Erie)/Walkill Valley interchanges. The horshoe shaped road is Erie Street. (The map was drawn by Ed Crist for his O&W book, "The Final Years". Somewhere here I have another one that we used in the O&W THS's magazine, "The Observer", in the seventies. Unlike this one, it shows all lines, including the Erie south of 207.
 
These connections were used by the Erie, O&W, and L&NE to get into Maybrook; the LHR had it's own separate line further to the east.
 
Hope this helps clear things up, at least a little.


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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
 
« Reply #87 on: Oct 1st, 2004, 7:00am »
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Marty,
 
Yes, it does clear things up. Thanks for posting and keeping the information in here accurate.
 
I do plan on going up again to see some of the areas of interest that I didn't see on my first trip. I would also like to see the Poughkeepsie bridge and visit the museum in Maybrook.
 
Ken


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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
 
« Reply #88 on: Oct 1st, 2004, 7:02am »
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I will also be stopping at some of the other stops from Maybrook down to Warwick. Is there any areas of interest that you can recommend?
 
Thanks


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BR_in_Maybrook
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
 
« Reply #89 on: Oct 7th, 2004, 9:27am »
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I am Charles Hoffman and I was Born in'39 and Raised in Maybrook leaving the area for military duty overseas in '61. My Grandfather Samuel N. Scott was the Boss of the New Haven Railroad's Maybrook yard from '26 until his death in DEC '41, soon after Pearl Harbor. On pages three and four you are reflecting some incorrect info. The track that passes through Campbell Hall, NY that the caboose is adjacent to was originally Erie RR trackage that connected the Erie RR mainline in Goshen, NY with the NYC's Wallkill Valley RR at Montgomery, NY and the CNE at Cambell Hall about four hundred feet to the north of the caboose. There is still a switch in existance at this location as both the Montgomery and Maybrook "Industrial Spurs" are active under NS. In later years the Erie built the Graham Line that allowed their through frieght traffic to Maybrook and the NJ waterfront to bypass its busy passenger line between Port Jervis and Harriman, NY. When you stand on the old Maybrook yard area at the end of Main St in Maybrook and look southward the rails that run off to you right is the CNE/NH line to Campbell Hall. Th old right of way that runs off to your left, the tracks removed about four yrs ago, was the L&HR RR mainline from Maybrook to Warwick, NY.  Orginally the Erie RR Graham Line passed over the L&H RR main line about 1/2 mile south of Campbell Hall.  During my yrs The L&NE RR which ran over Erie trackage from around Pine Island, NY to the NH at Maybrook used the single iron track that ran from Goshen to Campbell Hall. Where this single iron original connecting line crossed the Graham Line just to the south of the RR crossing in Campbell Hall was the Erie RR interlock that carried the initals "MQ".
 
I will be back with more later on.


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BR_in_Maybrook
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
 
« Reply #90 on: Oct 8th, 2004, 9:15am »
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I do not have to add anymore to my previous e-mail as Marty just about covered it all. I would like to say thank you to National Geographic type effort that is reflected in the shots of the building that was called "The Main Office". I spent some very limited time on at least two different ocassions trying to locate that building,and my frustration led me to believe that it had been knocked down for some unknown reason.  
 
If you are interested when you leave Maybrook southbound on route 208, the first overpass goes over the CNE/NH line to Campbell Hall. as you start down "Lehigh" hill, the next overpass goes over the L&H right of way and was the site from which many well known pictures of L&H ops into and out of Maybrook were taken. If you take the first road on your right at the bottom of Lehigh Hill, Otterkill RD, I think about 300 yds in, you will see where the R-o-W passed over this road. There used to be a beautiful period stone culvert that supported the R-o-W over the road. I think it was removed when the rd was improved because it narrowed the rd down to one lane. If you walk this R-o-W away from the Maybrook end you will come to the point that Marty mentioned that the NYO&W crossed the L&H at grade level. Think it very hard to find any traces of that now. A little history - the man who delivered the  various New York& NJ newspapers to the stores and homes in the region used to pick-up  his papers from the northbound very early morning NYO&W train at the Burnside Station/Interlock Tower. More history - Railroading in Maybrook came to its final end when the PB burned, but NYS&W brought a little life back when it used it for a very elongated "Y" as a way of getting the SEALAND stack train from the Southern Tier Line to the old L&H R-o-W as a means to an end for routing the stack train into the Little Falls, NJ intermodal facility. Soon after the "New" Hudson Jct connection was built by CONstipatedRAIL  connecting both lines directly at a location between Route 207 and the Sara Wells Trail, the rails on the L&H old R-o-W were torn up between Maybrook and that jct point.


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BR_in_Maybrook
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
 
« Reply #91 on: Oct 8th, 2004, 3:29pm »
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I am back again, because I failed to address your comments about that large cement legged frame work probably not being for a water tower/standpipe. If my memory serves me correctly that was in fact a water tower, of mushroom design, that provide non-potable fresh water to the Main Office and the Ice House. The CNE/NH built a resevoir using a man-made cement dam that collected spring & stream water to meet all of the railroad's needs in the days before Maybrook got a municipal water system. This was referred to as "The Resevoir" or "Indian Lake".There were two water towers/standpipes. One was where you pictured it and the other was at the engine service area just to the south of the engine house. This was located almost directly opposite the end of the road that is the next road down the hill from the YMCA road, which is the road adjacent to the northside of the village park where the gentleman walked down the knoll on to the old railyard area itself. There was a coal tipple, coaling tower, sand tower, and ash pit in this area.

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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #92 on: Oct 9th, 2004, 9:20pm »
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Pelton Road heading to New Milford and Vernon, NJ.

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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #93 on: Oct 9th, 2004, 9:24pm »
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Another shot of Pelton Road looking towards Warwick, NY

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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #94 on: Oct 9th, 2004, 9:31pm »
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Heading to the old Warwick Yard. If you have the L&HR book you can see where this sign once read L&H - R.R above the Howe St.

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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #95 on: Oct 9th, 2004, 9:34pm »
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The old Warwick Yard Office.

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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #96 on: Oct 9th, 2004, 9:41pm »
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What kind of lights are these    I really like this style.

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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #97 on: Oct 9th, 2004, 9:44pm »
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Another shot of the building with the RR tracks to the right.
 
From behind me is Jones Chemical Yard. I was being looked at very closely by the Security Guard and could not take any pictures facing in that direction. I will be going there again and asking for permission to view the area.  


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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #98 on: Oct 9th, 2004, 9:49pm »
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This shot is the best I could do without drawing the attention of the security guards and law enforcement agencies.
 
I placed a picture of the tracks within the picture of the building to give you an idea of what it would look like if I were to go back further just a little bit. By this time, the guard was starting to look in my direction very closely.


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njvike
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Re: L&HR: Upper End
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« Reply #99 on: Oct 9th, 2004, 9:53pm »
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This shot was taken from what I **believe** to be the front of the building looking to where the crossing will take place on RT 94 not too far from here.

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