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Electrics of the future
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   Author  Topic: Electrics of the future  (Read 1169 times)
George_Harris
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #40 on: Jun 13th, 2007, 9:05pm »
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on Jun 13th, 2007, 12:51am, O. WINSTON LINK esq. wrote:       (Click here for original message)
                                Japan, in particular, seemed to embrace electrics (both suburban and long-haul) with a strong passion. By the late 1950s and early 1960s, more and more streamlined electric trainsets and more conventional MU's dominated JNR's vast network of electrified rails. But the high point came in 1964, when the new Bullet trains made thier debut on the new, state-of-the-art Shinkansen system. Now, for the first time, Japan had a modern rail system exclusively devoted to true high-speed services. Now.....just imagine had we done the same in America!! Imagine, if you will, the NYCRR and the PRR operating high-speed electrics of thier own, on ROW's specially built (or renovated) trackage. I'll admit I do like to think about a Shinkansen-like system running between New York and Chicago.......ahhh, what COULD have been!!   John

John:
It really has to be seen to be believed.  Picture ticketed 8 minute connections between trains, a national timetable the size of a 1950's Official Guide, but actually more trains, most lines electrified, trains still a major part of the national conciousness, stations being busy hubs in most towns and cities, trains in cartoons, music videos, rail lines into several airports, etc.
 
About three years ago we did a week there with a rail pass, the Lonely Planet guide book, and the national timetable book.  Stayed at hotels in or adjacent to stations (most cities have a travel office in the railway station where you can set up hotel reservations, etc. so we would plan about a day ahead of where we were).  It was a great trip, but expensive.  Japan is not cheap to visit or live in.  You can travel there with the virtual certainty that everything will work as scheduled.  
 
George


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CHESSIEMIKE
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #41 on: Jun 13th, 2007, 9:50pm »
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on Jun 13th, 2007, 9:05pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
It was a great trip, but expensive.  Japan is not cheap to visit or live in.  You can travel there with the virtual certainty that everything will work as scheduled.  
 
George
Right you are on both counts.  Spent a week over there in April, 2004 and had a great time. Did not have one moment of transportation problem or even worry. I only regret not getting to the Umekoji Steam Locomotive Museum while they were open.
CHESSIEMIKE


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Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
O. WINSTON LINK esq.
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #42 on: Jun 13th, 2007, 9:53pm »
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             Hi, George: Man, it's more than obvious that the JNR is NOT Amtrak!! It is not surprising, though, when one considers Japan's long-standing passion for transport systems that function with the utmost of efficiency. If only our government operated our railroads (what's left of them) in the same manner! Certainly, (as I'm sure you are well aware of) the Japanese truly believe in everything been well-engineered and well-constructed! And, this is obviously MORE than evident in their railways!   John

« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2007, 9:55pm by JOHN_LUTHER_JONES » Logged
HwyHaulier
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #43 on: Jun 14th, 2007, 7:27am »
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on Jun 13th, 2007, 9:53pm, O. WINSTON LINK esq. wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...Certainly, (as I'm sure you are well aware of) the Japanese truly believe in everything been well-engineered and well-constructed! And, this is obviously MORE than evident in their railways!...  

John - George - All -
 
It is said imitation is the sincerest of flattery. Keep the first of the Bullet Train equipment in mind. At least it is comforting to recall it was based largely on what amounted to pre WWII, US design standards. Pennsylvania Railroad revisited, and in exile?...
 
We could have picked up from where we had left off, had some folks here done their assigned duties, according to the job descriptions. They should have seen to it we had a rail system that continued to meet promised year over year profitability targets. That didn't appear to be much of a worthy objective to the big business hatred ideologues with hands on the controls! Can't fault our own carriers for any lack of trying....  
 
.......................Vern...................


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towny72
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #44 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 11:51am »
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I dont know alot of the costs involved but wouldnt exploring electrification for UP in Cali makes sense. The state and fed gov are against the UP and BNSF expansion to the ports due to diesel pollutants. So to electrify the line out to a more uninhabited area could get around that issue, plus possibly soke up a lot of grant money to pay for it!

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Pennsy
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #45 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 12:40pm »
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Hi,
 
Doesn't look to well for UP and BNSF for electrification in Southern California, but there is serious talk of extending the Red Line and some of the LRV lines towards LAX and the seashore. That would help out quite a bit. Both the Red Line, a subway, and the LRV lines, run on 750 VDC. Red line uses a third rail and the LRV's use a catenary. Looks like they are slowly undoing the really big mistake of getting rid of the old Trolley lines such as Pacific Electric.


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RDG_4-8-4
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #46 on: Jun 19th, 2007, 12:31am »
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on Jun 15th, 2007, 12:40pm, Pennsy wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Hi,
 
Doesn't look to well for UP and BNSF for electrification in Southern California, but there is serious talk of extending the Red Line and some of the LRV lines towards LAX and the seashore. That would help out quite a bit. Both the Red Line, a subway, and the LRV lines, run on 750 VDC. Red line uses a third rail and the LRV's use a catenary. Looks like they are slowly undoing the really big mistake of getting rid of the old Trolley lines such as Pacific Electric.

 
They just didn't count on the freeways getting clogged up like they do.


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Pennsy
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #47 on: Jun 19th, 2007, 1:11am »
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Hi RDG484,
 
You got that right. There is now talk of putting another deck above the Freeways to add additional lanes where widening the Freeway is impossible. Some Freeways already have six lanes, each direction, 12 total, and the center of the Freeway is used by Metrolink, and freights, BNSF.


« Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2007, 1:12am by Pennsy » Logged

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RDG_4-8-4
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #48 on: Jun 21st, 2007, 10:09am »
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on Jun 19th, 2007, 1:11am, Pennsy wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Hi RDG484,
 
You got that right. There is now talk of putting another deck above the Freeways to add additional lanes where widening the Freeway is impossible. Some Freeways already have six lanes, each direction, 12 total, and the center of the Freeway is used by Metrolink, and freights, BNSF.

 
Anything just to keep the oil barons rich!!!!  You KNOW something like that will be done WAY before we ever see any kind of high-speed rail in this backwards country!!!


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #49 on: Jun 21st, 2007, 10:58am »
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RDG' -
 
See July 2007 Trains for analysis of where electrics are in the picture. If we are ever to do high speed trains, it compels electric power. The thinking in Trains states electric can't catch a break if it can't rely on lower cost, nuclear power....
 
Gimme a date certain when the fawning, give the public what it wants, mind control media, and its hangers on experts, will go very pro nuclear electric plants. Nuclear is how the French do it. If we want comparable high speed trains, it takes all the rest of the plant that makes it all possible...
 
...........................Vern................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #50 on: Jun 23rd, 2007, 4:44pm »
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Looks like the up-front capital investment has been the killer for every private electrification project since the Pennsy in the 1930s. It is REALLY hard to make the capital (catenary, new power, expanded or converted shops, etc) back on fuel savings and the abandonment of prime-mover repair and operation costs. Especially since you are going to have the electrification limited to only a few high-usage lines and STILL ahve to ahve diesel-electric for much (most? -I think most) of the system.
 
Doesn't make electrification a bad (or even not doable) thing. For freight or passenger, but it does say we are going to have to have some really serious public money or at least public incentive (and a change in power generation philosophy - we do need nukes; a LOT of nukes) before we are gonna have it. Darn it.


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Walt_C
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #51 on: Jun 23rd, 2007, 10:33pm »
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on Jun 23rd, 2007, 4:44pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Looks like the up-front capital investment has been the killer for every private electrification project since the Pennsy in the 1930s. It is REALLY hard to make the capital (catenary, new power, expanded or converted shops, etc) back on fuel savings and the abandonment of prime-mover repair and operation costs. Especially since you are going to have the electrification limited to only a few high-usage lines and STILL ahve to ahve diesel-electric for much (most? -I think most) of the system.

 
 I don't think we'll ever see the kind of electrification we're talking about, if it is going to be limited to only a few high-usage lines. Either an entire property will be electrified, or none of it will. The Pennsy electrification, though  it didn't cover the entire property, did cover the greater portion of its Eastern Territory. ( And it was not entirely privately financed). I don't see a railroad maintaining a fleet of diesel-electric and straight electric locomotives in today's world. And if the electrified portion is to be a truly high-speed operation, the property will not want to operate its slower diesel powered trains on that trackage out of a concern for holding up the faster electric-powered traffic.  Does not speak well for the future of electric powered high speed service anywhere outside of the NEC.


« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2007, 10:34pm by Walt_C » Logged

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ClydeDET
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #52 on: Jul 6th, 2007, 2:16pm »
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Maybe in Kali - San Francisco or rather Oakland to Sacramento and down the Valley. Maybe then over the hills to LA and to San Diego.

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George_Harris
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #53 on: Aug 8th, 2007, 9:16pm »
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It is very much in the California plans to electrify the ex-Southern Pacific San Francisco commuter service down the penninsula to San Jose.  It won't be cheap.  There are the close clearance tunnels near San Francisco.  How close?  Close enough that if for the couple that you can hit at good speed, the piston effect can make your ears pop if you are in the first car in push mode.  
 
It is also planned that the north end of the Calif. High Speed will enter San Francisco on this line, probably with a couple of extra tracks.  
 
There are rumbles that there will untimately be railroad electrification throughout the Los Angeles basin, but that remains to be seen.  Remember, a few years ago when it was proposed to electrify the ex ATSF San Diego line, the NIMBY's objected to it because it cluttered up the ocean front.  These same people also fight any increase in trains or train speeds and any additional tracks.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #54 on: Aug 9th, 2007, 7:40am »
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on Aug 8th, 2007, 9:16pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...It is very much in the California plans to electrify the ex-Southern Pacific San Francisco commuter service down the penninsula to San Jose.  It won't be cheap...   

George -
 
Ideas of wiring the line have been around forever, it seems. It has been marked by tenacious and vocal proponents. IMHO, the case for it only marginally persuasive. There is a clever little tactic where some of the too enthusiastic insist: Diesel electric equals smoke, and thereby, directly adds to degraded air quality. On the order of a, don't bother me with facts rationale. Makes one wonder if the critics have actually observed modern Diesel power in action....
 
Too, one of Dr. Thomas Sowell's maxims is: It's all trade offs! Such being the case, what of possible pollution sources at the supporting power plants? It is unlikely the entire region can be carried on Hetch Hetchy power. My corollary to Sowell's Maxim: It's hard to find a good panacea these days! <G> ...
 
Hmmm.... Do we still need to hear from the types who will argue about, as they complain,  the claimed unsightly overhead wires? A lot of these folks sorely need Star Trek transporter beams to deal with the perceived objections! <G>
 
....................Vern................
 
 


« Last Edit: Aug 9th, 2007, 7:41am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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Railfan Entertainments
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #55 on: Aug 9th, 2007, 1:14pm »
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This is one electrics I see in the furture, GG1 2.0. With more power and a louder horn, more pulling power, brighter headlights, bigger brakes, and uses less energy.

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Pennsy
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #56 on: Aug 9th, 2007, 2:08pm »
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Hi PRR,
 
Thanks for the reference to my old thread on the GG-2. Does seem to fit in right here.
 
I think that the next generation electric will be a B-B engine, with excellent visibiltiy, superior electronics and computer control. Great aerodynamics and really streamlined looking. Probably will look like it is moving while it is standing still. The Faively type pantograph seems to be the way to go these days, and probably one at each end. Engine should be double ended, so that turning the engine around is unnecessary. That should do it for now.


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jmlaboda
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #57 on: Oct 18th, 2007, 1:51am »
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With all this talk of future electronics what do you think the power will be... AC or DC?

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Railfan Entertainments
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #58 on: Oct 18th, 2007, 10:23am »
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on Oct 18th, 2007, 1:51am, jmlaboda wrote:       (Click here for original message)
With all this talk of future electronics what do you think the power will be... AC or DC?

 
Probably AC. Saves eletricity.
KB3PQD signing out


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ClydeDET
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #59 on: Oct 18th, 2007, 7:48pm »
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Doesn't just save electricity. MUCH better transmission characteristics.
 
Oh - here's something curious (I guess). One of the old (original series) Tom Swift books was TOM SWIFT AND HIS ELECRTRIC LOCOMOTIVE. From 1922. Teh engine Tom built, to make 120 mph with a passenger train on the level and climb hills at around sixty with a freight, was a 2-C+C-2... AND had twin motor, quill drive just like a GG-1. Almost a decade before the GG-1 or the (somewhat) earlier 2-C+C-2 New Haven engines had appeared...


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