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Electrics of the future
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   Author  Topic: Electrics of the future  (Read 1166 times)
Pennsy
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #20 on: Jun 9th, 2007, 12:45pm »
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Hi Vern,
 
Yes indeed, we both agree that there is enough blame to go around for that "slaughter".
 
However, some years ago now, the Mayor of Los Angeles, at the dedication of the Gold Line, an LRV system, said that he rode the last Big Red trolley car as a child, on the day service ended. His Dad, Kenny Hahn, told him that they were throwing away a magnificent mass transit system and one day they will regret it and have to replace it. And so it came to pass. LA now has an LRV mass transit system, and a subway. Metrolink also helps out, and is also expanding. Words of wisdom from Kenny Hahn, RIP, that are now coming true.


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Walt_C
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #21 on: Jun 9th, 2007, 2:36pm »
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on Jun 8th, 2007, 4:49pm, RDG_4-8-4 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Thank you for your understanding, Walt and Winston.  It goes to show that they certainly don't build them like they used to.  You could start with the basic Bullet body, perhaps arrange them as a permenantly-coupled 4-car or 6-car train, maybe add larger trucks with longer wheelbases for better ride quality, quieter and more powerful motors, air conditioning, picture windows, different interior arrangements (1st class, cafe, straight coach) and I think you would have a winner.

 
  RDG: I wouldn't call my comments "understanding" You and I have always agreed, I think, on what a remarkable set of units those Bullet Cars were. If we had a disagreement, it was over what those cars were actually designed to do. ( I see them as strictly interurbans, while I think you see them as having "Class 1" characteristics) Certainly, though, the technology represented by those cars is as valid today as it was in 1931. And a true class I sized Bullet could very easily have been built as a third variation on the car type. My bottom line is, ( for purposes of the discussion in this thread) that the Bullets did exactly what they were designed to do, and did it for 60 years. I doubt that ANY of today's units will be able to say THAT.


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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #22 on: Jun 9th, 2007, 5:59pm »
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             Hi, Walt: Yes, the legendary Bullet was indeed a railcar that truly was of the future....a "glimpse of tomorrow today", as they used to say in the old newsreels. It is indeed fascinating to ponder the thought of the Bullet's basic concept being further developed and refined, as well as enlarged. As I mentioned in a previous posting, I can easily envision a four-section articulated Bullet, built along the lines of the famed Electroliners. Can you imagine the PRR buying a fleet of such railcars, for high-speed service between New York and Washington?? Man, that would be something to see....especially if the units were all decked out in classic Pennsy pinstripes!!! WOW!!!!!   John

« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2007, 6:01pm by JOHN_LUTHER_JONES » Logged
Walt_C
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #23 on: Jun 9th, 2007, 7:21pm »
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John: Brill Bullet meets Electroliner eh? Well, of course, that actually happened, in 1964, when the Red Arrow acquired the "Liners" and ran them ( as "Liberty Liners" ) on the P&W until the late 1970's. I had the pleasure of riding on one of the Liners back in the 1960's. They, too, were great trains, and on the North Shore Line, can also be said to have done exactly what they were desiged to do.

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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #24 on: Jun 9th, 2007, 11:15pm »
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  Hi, Walt: Sadly, I never got a chance to ride on a "Liberty Liner", but I saw enough pictures of them over the years to know what sleek and distinctive electrics they were. If the PRR had ever bought similiar units, they certainly would have been "the GG-1's of the MU world"!!   John

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Walt_C
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #25 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 1:35am »
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John:  PRR probably didn't need what the Liners were designed to do. These were train sets which, essentially were a 1930's type streamlined train, complete with coaches and a tavern lounge car, shoehorned into an interurban sized unit.  ( They were NOT MU trains, as the four short cars were permanently coupled and shared trucks, thus creating two four car trains which would have to be considered to be single units) They were designed to be able to snake their way around the curves on the Chicago El, run at 80 plus MPH through the open spaces between Chicago and Milwaukee, AND to negotiate the streetcar tracks of Milwaukee at the northern end of their runs while at the same time providing all of  the luxury amenities which were the hallmark of the North Shore Line's Chicago- Milwaukee Limited trains. On the North Shore Line, these two trains did this admirably. On the P&W, they were too much train for that short 13.5 mile line--- the ride was too short to really experience the tavern lounge car to its fullest, and the trains were too heavy and consumed too much power for the P&W infrastructure. They had really been purchased when the Red Arrow was considering extending the P&W to Downingtown over the freight only Chester Valley Branch of the Reading. This proposal never happened, so the Liners were confined to one or two trips per day between 69th Street & Norristown.--NOT what the trains were designed to do.--- The PRR would not have needed a "mini-streamliner" when it could ( and did) run full Class I Railroad sized streamlined trains.

« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2007, 1:41am by Walt_C » Logged

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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #26 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 1:57am »
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  Hi, Walt: You are correct; the Liners were NOT MU's...rather, they were individual articulated trainsets. Perhaps it could be debated if the PRR ever decided to replace/modernize their MP-54 MU fleet back in the "streamlined thirties", the PRR might have opted for streamlined equipment, just as they opted for modern, streamlined mainline power in the form of the GG-1. Now....let's fast-foward several decades to 2007. We've seen hi-tech, ultra-modern electrics in the form of the Acelas. We've seen the modern, high-speed equipment that now pretty well dominates many lines in Europe, Asia, and Japan. How advanced will our next generation of electrics be? Of course, none of us knows for sure, but, perhaps, as I suggested earlier, there might just be some semblence of a return to some sort of "no frills, back-to-basics" equipment in the future. We can only wait and see what's down the track.   John

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silver_champion
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Posts: 888
Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #27 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 10:03am »
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I think that the electric locos are the future of railroading. I wish that a
American company like GE would build a good passenger loco. You can
keep the HHP-8 on a siding.


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Walt_C
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Posts: 2934
Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #28 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 12:46pm »
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on Jun 10th, 2007, 1:57am, O. WINSTON LINK esq. wrote:       (Click here for original message)
                 Hi, Walt: You are correct; the Liners were NOT MU's...rather, they were individual articulated trainsets. Perhaps it could be debated if the PRR ever decided to replace/modernize their MP-54 MU fleet back in the "streamlined thirties", the PRR might have opted for streamlined equipment, just as they opted for modern, streamlined mainline power in the form of the GG-1. Now....let's fast-foward several decades to 2007. We've seen hi-tech, ultra-modern electrics in the form of the Acelas. We've seen the modern, high-speed equipment that now pretty well dominates many lines in Europe, Asia, and Japan. How advanced will our next generation of electrics be? Of course, none of us knows for sure, but, perhaps, as I suggested earlier, there might just be some semblence of a return to some sort of "no frills, back-to-basics" equipment in the future. We can only wait and see what's down the track.   John

 
 I think that the Liners are an excellent basis for a 2007 model electric train-set. The only reservation I have with using a complete trainset ( as opposed to individual MU cars) in commuter service ( ie-- as a replacement for the MP 54's--- or the now 40 year old technology of the Silverliners) would be the inability to add cars to a trainset if the component cars are perminently coupled and particularly if the trainset is articulated. And in the high traffic volume world of the NEC, the ability to add to a particular train's consist to reflect traffic conditions will always be very important. In this regard, the CONCEPT of the Metroliner MU cars was fine-----it was the units themselves that posed the problem. It should certainly be possible to develop a 21st Century electric--- locomotive OR MU unit which will do what we need it to do. But we must first identify that need, then take the time to develop units which meet that need. Use updated technology when appropriate, but don't forget the successes of the past.


« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2007, 12:48pm by Walt_C » Logged

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HwyHaulier
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #29 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 6:05pm »
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General W. W. Atterbury appeared before me in a dream. He noted he would have been most disinclined to use M.U. designs, lacking crew protection, at passenger train speeds....
 
Came across this excellent, lengthy 1935 obituary. He died at age 69. See the accounts of his long concerns, and remarkable working relationships with P R R employees....
 
Also, and this crosses many threads, he was prescient of huge possible damages to the rail industry, as a result of much legislation that was being debated. He very clearly knew, from the P R R perspective, the inherent arbitrary, capricious and evil outcomes. He was right. We lived through it. P R R reduced to a footnote. (Here, I have long criticized the 1935 Motor Carrier Act, and related legislation.)
 
http://www.indianamilitary.org/GeneralAtterbury/Obit.htm
 
....................Vern..................


« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2007, 6:09pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

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Walt_C
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #30 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 6:55pm »
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on Jun 10th, 2007, 6:05pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
General W. W. Atterbury appeared before me in a dream. He noted he would have been most disinclined to use M.U. designs, lacking crew protection, at passenger train speeds....
 
....................Vern..................

 
 Clearly the issue of crew protection was very important to the PRR-- hence the steeple cab configuration of the GG1----which first appeared on the Modified P5A's as a result of a fatal grade crossing collision involving a Box Cab P5A.  I suspect that if Mr. Atterbury had been at the head of the PRR in in the late 1950's early '60's (when the Metroliner MU Cars were being developed) there might have been NO Metroliner MU's, given the total lack of crew protection provided by the design as it was actually applied.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #31 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 9:06pm »
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Walt -
 
Concur with your estimation concerning the Metroliner designs. What made the proposition possible was the DOT money. I had some converations, and correspondence, with P R R passenger people, at Baltimore and Philadelphia. This was some time after the introduction of the Keystone equipment and schedules.
 
By then, the P R R people were very much conveying a corporate attitude that for all the money they had put into passenger service improvements, the results were very disappointing. Seemed to me they had about all they wanted, and no more.
 
So, a remaining question: Whether Metroliner design work was the Penn's, or performed with outside planning?
 
.........................Vern.................


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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #32 on: Jun 10th, 2007, 11:46pm »
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on Jun 10th, 2007, 12:46pm, Walt_C wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 I think that the Liners are an excellent basis for a 2007 model electric train-set. The only reservation I have with using a complete trainset ( as opposed to individual MU cars) in commuter service ( ie-- as a replacement for the MP 54's--- or the now 40 year old technology of the Silverliners) would be the inability to add cars to a trainset if the component cars are perminently coupled and particularly if the trainset is articulated. And in the high traffic volume world of the NEC, the ability to add to a particular train's consist to reflect traffic conditions will always be very important. In this regard, the CONCEPT of the Metroliner MU cars was fine-----it was the units themselves that posed the problem. It should certainly be possible to develop a 21st Century electric--- locomotive OR MU unit which will do what we need it to do. But we must first identify that need, then take the time to develop units which meet that need. Use updated technology when appropriate, but don't forget the successes of the past.
 Hi, Walt: Good points, all! Perhaps that is one reason that Japan's famous Shinkansen system has been so successful for over 40 years.....they've continuted to advance and update, but still using the basic Bullet concept as the "foundation" for future designs. The Japanese, clearly, are quite adept at designing, building, and OPERATING true high-speed systems. Likewise, in Europe, truly modern high-speed systems have long been quite succesful and efficient. And, here again, what we see today has its roots in the original high-speed trains of a few decades back.Japan and Europe HAVE the "roots" to fall back on, regarding high-speed rail systems. Here, at home, of course, we do not. But, we can only wait and see what "miracles" the future holds.......    John


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RDG_4-8-4
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #33 on: Jun 12th, 2007, 1:51am »
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on Jun 10th, 2007, 11:46pm, O. WINSTON LINK esq. wrote:       (Click here for original message)

  Hi, Walt: Good points, all! Perhaps that is one reason that Japan's famous Shinkansen system has been so successful for over 40 years.....they've continuted to advance and update, but still using the basic Bullet concept as the "foundation" for future designs. The Japanese, clearly, are quite adept at designing, building, and OPERATING true high-speed systems. Likewise, in Europe, truly modern high-speed systems have long been quite succesful and efficient. And, here again, what we see today has its roots in the original high-speed trains of a few decades back.Japan and Europe HAVE the "roots" to fall back on, regarding high-speed rail systems. Here, at home, of course, we do not. But, we can only wait and see what "miracles" the future holds.......    John

 
But yet the first TRUE high-speed electric trains were built here in America; to be exact in PHILADELPHIA.  Hello, Winston.............


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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #34 on: Jun 12th, 2007, 2:15am »
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on Jun 12th, 2007, 1:51am, RDG_4-8-4 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
But yet the first TRUE high-speed electric trains were built here in America; to be exact in PHILADELPHIA.  Hello, Winston.............

  Hi, RDG: Yep, I hear you, my friend, and you are quite correct! What I was referring to, was that the USA never had a true main-line high speed system like the Shinkansen. The Bullets, however, as we both know, truly ushered in the era for high-speed electrics in the USA. Unlike the Electroliners (man, were they speedsters!!), the Bullets were MU's. Just imagine if "Bullet-mania" had taken hold here....and taken firm root........do it the RIGHT way!! Do it the BULLET way!!  John


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George_Harris
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #35 on: Jun 12th, 2007, 10:49am »
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on Jun 12th, 2007, 1:51am, RDG_4-8-4 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
But yet the first TRUE high-speed electric trains were built here in America; to be exact in PHILADELPHIA.  Hello, Winston.............

But we never built the track necessary for them to properly run and show the world what they were capable of doing.  
 
It is as if we decided to build 747 jets, but only to build airports for 4 fan prop job, and then blame the inability to use the jets on the plane, not the runways.
 
To have rebuilt the Pennsy main to four tracks - at 15 foot or wider centers, not 12.5 or whatever rediculously close centers they are and lots of curve straightening and otherwise dealt with the slow spots and modernized the nature of the overhead would have still been cheaper than the completely new lines built in Japan and later France.
 
Do that and the French and Germans would be coming to see how we do it, not the US going to see how they do it.  
 
(even today after over 36 years of Amtrak, you still run at no more than 30 mph on Washington Terminal trackage, and 15 mph through the turnouts and crossovers, and you have to go under New York Avenue and around the curve before you can start accelerating above 30 mph.  I can ride a train today on 3ft-6in narrow gauge where the turnouts and crossovers in the main city station are good for 28 mph and the speed is 45 mph just beyond them.)


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #36 on: Jun 12th, 2007, 11:42am »
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George -
 
Yours, just prior. Which is why I am more than curious about a latest DoT agenda in the identification of select long haul corridors, and funds for finalists.
 
C S X on record with an overhaul, Washington - Miami; four tracks WAS - RIC, and three tracks to MIA. In its releases, it also notes projected build to 125 mph passenger standards.
 
N S reporting a NJ - Louisiana major overhaul. In its accounts, more focused on present highway traffic, heavily now on I-81, and an important possible source of business....
 
We'll see. The history of all of it: Restoration, and incremental betterment, of the predecessor Atlantic Coast Line main of seven decades back?.....
 
......................Vern..................


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RDG_4-8-4
Former Member
Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #37 on: Jun 13th, 2007, 12:14am »
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on Jun 12th, 2007, 10:49am, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)

But we never built the track necessary for them to properly run and show the world what they were capable of doing.  
 
It is as if we decided to build 747 jets, but only to build airports for 4 fan prop job, and then blame the inability to use the jets on the plane, not the runways.
 
To have rebuilt the Pennsy main to four tracks - at 15 foot or wider centers, not 12.5 or whatever rediculously close centers they are and lots of curve straightening and otherwise dealt with the slow spots and modernized the nature of the overhead would have still been cheaper than the completely new lines built in Japan and later France.
 
Do that and the French and Germans would be coming to see how we do it, not the US going to see how they do it.  
 
(even today after over 36 years of Amtrak, you still run at no more than 30 mph on Washington Terminal trackage, and 15 mph through the turnouts and crossovers, and you have to go under New York Avenue and around the curve before you can start accelerating above 30 mph.  I can ride a train today on 3ft-6in narrow gauge where the turnouts and crossovers in the main city station are good for 28 mph and the speed is 45 mph just beyond them.)

 
This country is so backwards it's beyond disgraceful.


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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #38 on: Jun 13th, 2007, 12:51am »
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       Japan, in particular, seemed to embrace electrics (both suburban and long-haul) with a strong passion. By the late 1950s and early 1960s, more and more streamlined electric trainsets and more conventional MU's dominated JNR's vast network of electrified rails. But the high point came in 1964, when the new Bullet trains made thier debut on the new, state-of-the-art Shinkansen system. Now, for the first time, Japan had a modern rail system exclusively devoted to true high-speed services. Now.....just imagine had we done the same in America!! Imagine, if you will, the NYCRR and the PRR operating high-speed electrics of thier own, on ROW's specially built (or renovated) trackage. I'll admit I do like to think about a Shinkansen-like system running between New York and Chicago.......ahhh, what COULD have been!!   John

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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
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Re: Electrics of the future
 
« Reply #39 on: Jun 13th, 2007, 1:02am »
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             All: Here are two detailed and fascinating links on the Shinkansen (imagine such a system here??) I will admit, I'm NO FAN of the newest Shinkansen trains......they look like electrified platypuses!! I prefer the original 1964 models....they were magnificent!!  http://www.h2.dion.ne.jp/~dajf/byunbyun/index.htm   http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2018.html

« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2007, 1:03am by JOHN_LUTHER_JONES » Logged
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