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Knox and Kane RR: Liquidation Auction Oct. 10 & 11
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   Knox and Kane RR: Liquidation Auction Oct. 10 & 11
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   Author  Topic: Knox and Kane RR: Liquidation Auction Oct. 10 & 11  (Read 12951 times)
thebigham
Historian
Posts: 1158
Knox and Kane RR: Liquidation Auction Oct. 10 & 11
 
« on: Apr 18th, 2005, 7:51pm »
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Freight business is increasing on the K&K.
 
I toured the line on April 10th. Five boxcars were in Marienville and 11 boxcars were on the interchange track in Mt. Jewett.
 
The B&P Johnsonburg switcher delivered 11 empty bulkhead flats to the K&K last week.
 
Power is either a GP9 or an Alco RS36.
 
Chris


« Last Edit: Sep 9th, 2008, 11:18am by thebigham » Logged
thebigham
Historian
Posts: 1158
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #1 on: Aug 25th, 2005, 11:40am »
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I keep hearing the K&K is ending operations, but its still keeps going.
 
Two passenger cars left the property this week for the Holiday & Roaring Spring Railroad.
 
Chris


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thebigham
Historian
Posts: 1158
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #2 on: Sep 14th, 2005, 1:58pm »
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The K&K got 3 empties from the B&P the other night.
 
Chris


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rob216
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Posts: 436
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #3 on: Sep 14th, 2005, 4:08pm »
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Are they going out off business or is it just the passenger/tourist service that is going?

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My opinion is just that, my opinion and in no way represents the company I work with.

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thebigham
Historian
Posts: 1158
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #4 on: Sep 29th, 2005, 7:11pm »
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Passenger operations have ended.
 
Freight may be ending.
 
Chris
 


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thebigham
Historian
Posts: 1158
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #5 on: Oct 10th, 2005, 3:35pm »
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Subject: Efforts underway to purchase Knox and Kane Railroad  
 
http://www2.theclarionnews.com/General_News/45837.shtml  
 
Efforts underway to purchase Knox and Kane Railroad  
By Rodney L. Sherman, Clarion News Editor  
 
PAINT TWP. - Negotiations are under way for the purchase of the Knox and  
Kane Railroad by a yet to be determined buyer which would then put the  
rail line under the control and management of an authority board. After  
the purchase and the transfer of control to the authority, the state could  
kick in as much as 70 percent of the funding needed to upgrade the  
railroad bed and tracks with existing businesses in Paint Township  
covering the remainder of the costs.  
 
Paint Township Supervisor Randy Vossburg said the details of the plan are  
still vague, but added he hopes the deal can be completed in order to  
boost business and manufacturing development in the township. Vossburg  
said he isnt part of the negotiating team working with Knox and Kane  
Railroad owner Sloan Cornell, but he believes the sale price of the rail  
line is around $2.5 million.  
 
According to Vossburg, Clarion County Commissioner David Cyphert and  
Walter Frint, executive director of the A-C Valley Development Corp., are  
meeting with Cornell about the sale. Cyphert said he has talked to  
Cornell about the railroad but has only so far tried to determine a sale  
price.  
 
Frint spearheaded a recent effort by a business group which wanted to  
build a bio-diesel refinery in Paint Township. That effort fell through  
because, Frint said, of the poor condition of the railroad. The  
bio-diesel plant is now planned for a former oil refinery site in Venango  
County with access to a railroad in better condition.  
 
Vossburg said the idea of a bio-diesel plant in Paint Township is not  
dead. "I'm in negotiations with the bio-diesel group," said Vossburg.  
"If the plant in Oil City works out and if the Knox and Kane Railroad can  
be rebuilt and used, then they might put another bio-diesel plant here in  
Paint Township."  
 
Gov. Ed Rendell late last month announced $13 million in funding aimed at  
repairing railroads throughout the state, however, none of that money is  
headed for the Knox and Kane Railroad serving Paint Township.  
 
While Vossburg spoke openly of the efforts to purchase and upgrade the  
Knox and Kane Railroad, others were more guarded in their comments. "We  
will continue to work on a plan to make the railroad a viable (shipping  
option) for Clarion Boards," said Bradford R. Ehrhart, executive director  
of the Clarion County Economic Development Corporation. "We are working  
closely with Paint Township and Clarion County."  
 
Officials at Clarion Boards Inc., the Paint Township-based fiberboard  
manufacturing facility, have repeated said they would like to see the Knox  
and Kane Railroad upgrade its tracks running from the plant north to  
Marienville and Kane.  
 
A meeting between the EDC, PennDOT, Gov. Rendells Action Team, a  
representative of U.S. Rep. John Petersons office and representatives  
from state Rep. Fred McIlhattans and state Sen. Mary Jo Whites office  
was held last week, however, Ehrhart said no solid plans came out of the  
session. "We're sort of in the middle of the program," said Ehrhart. "We  
have a good opportunity here with the railroad."  
 
Ehrhart said there have been discussion with Sloan Cornell and his family  
 owners of the rail line. "That's about all I can say right now," said  
Ehrhart. "It's a work in progress."  
 
News Published with Active News Manager, Hosting by USAChoice.  
Copyright 2001


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thebigham
Historian
Posts: 1158
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #6 on: Jan 21st, 2006, 12:12pm »
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The K&K has ended operations and all the equipment is for sale.
 
Chris
 
http://www2.theclarionnews.com/General_News/49006.shtml
 
The train doesn’t run here anymore
By Amy A. Thompson, Clarion News writer  
 
PAINT TWP. -- The Knox and Kane Railroad, which runs through Paint Township and serves Clarion County industry, has "embargoed" itself allegedly for safety reasons.
 
 
"The company has ceased (operations by its own decision)," said Cyndi Page, public information specialist for the state Public Utilities Commission, which regulates railroads in the state.
 
Page said the PUC has called the Knox and Kane Railroad asking for the reason or reasons it ceased operation.
 
The government typically places an embargo or cease operations order on a transportation entity for safety reasons.
 
According to Page, the Knox and Kane Railroad embargoed itself once in the past because of bad rail bed ties. The government intervened, the ties were replaced and made the line operational again, Page said.
 
However, the condition of the line has not been a secret.
 
"That line is a line that needs to be totally upgraded to hold any substantial weight," said state Rep. Fred McIlhattan (R-63).
 
"The line is not secure right now and needs repairs and the amount (cost) of the repairs is very, very high," said Jean Desautels, general manager of Clarion Boards, Inc.
 
Clarion County Economic Development Corporation Executive Director Brad Ehrhart said he has heard from customers the locomotive and cars have derailed in the past.
 
Clarion Boards Inc. has special interest in line’s survival.
 
Desautels said that from October to December 2005, Clarion Boards had 50 rails cars per month being delivered to customers. "One rail car equals to three trucks," Desautels explained.
 
Clarion Boards planned to increase production this month to 80 rail cars per month to keep up with increases in customer orders.
 
The unavailability of the train has resulted in shortfalls in sales and has Clarion Boards "struggling to find enough trucks," Desautels said.
 
"The truck availability is not as good," Desautels said.
 
Desautels added railroads are the best way to transport medium density fiberboard.
 
"The train was the best way. For us, it was a big disaster," Desautels said of when they learned the train ceased operation in late December.
 
For now Clarion Boards has rerouted orders by truck and has fiberboard products hauled to rail heads at the DuBois reload center, another rail line.
 
"The reload center is helping us a lot," Desautels said.
 
Clarion Boards is now shipping 40 to 45 trucks per day to the Reload Center.
 
"It’s very difficult," Desautels said.
 
Desautels said the issues with the railroad are "changing the long-term horizon" for Clarion Boards.
 
But Desautels reassured the Clarion News it is committed to the area.
 
"We’re bullheaded," Desautels said. "We don’t plan to shut down – not at all."
 
In the meantime, local politicians say they are dedicated to this project.
 
"We’re still sifting through it," McIlhattan said. "It is a very challenging situation."
 
Ehrhart said the project has had great cooperation from the county commissioners, Paint Township supervisors, McIlhattan, state Sen. Mary Jo White (R-21), U.S. Rep. John Peterson and Gov. Ed Rendell’s Action Team.
 
"It has been a collaborative effort on the part of several levels of government," Ehrhart said.


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K4s 1361
Railfan
Posts: 117
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #7 on: Jan 28th, 2006, 12:01am »
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I work at Cornell Abraxas In Marienville.
 
I've never seen B&P engines on the line, doesn't mean they don't go there.
 
The Tourist line is pretty much "Tits up", but they have been taking Timber products out on the line from time to time.
 
However when i saw the Freight leaving it was being pulled by a Red and Blue "Geep" that said Gettysburg on it! Maybe the guy who ran the tourist raiload is broke and selling his stuff, but B&P decided to take over operating the line for local businesses to ship via them? This is a Possibility!  
 
B&P would have to jump on the line somewhere around Kane, Pa. since the Kinzua Bridge is gone.
 
I have noticed a Hopper Car sitting there, I had not noticed they removed any of the Passenger cars, all the old Pullmans were still there when i looked last week.
 
Heck Maybe I saw you, there was a Guy asking about the railline while i was in Uni- Mart up there, and Older gentleman, If it was you, I was the big Guy with the Ford Hat and Black Field Jacket on.
 
Anybody know where the Pullmans came from? They are the older non Steramliner type, they are orange but i cannot makout what color they originally were.


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I wish i was there when steam ruled the rails!!

The Brickleys from Germany Originals since 1750.
K4s 1361
Railfan
Posts: 117
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #8 on: Jan 28th, 2006, 12:08am »
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BTW, Cornell Abraxas, has NO affiliation with Sloan Cornell, it is a subsidiary of Cornell Companies of Houston Texas!!
 
Anyway, $2.5 Million! Is Mr. Cornell insane?
 
The Railbed would need entirely relaid just to make it Useable South of Marienville, and up to Kane it isn't much better!!
 
BTW, Where does that line connect above Marienville? I thought it ran to the bridge and the northern access was above the bridge. Or am i mistaken and nothing is moving south of the Kinzua bridge wreckage?


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I wish i was there when steam ruled the rails!!

The Brickleys from Germany Originals since 1750.
ARA18
Historian
Posts: 565
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #9 on: Jul 7th, 2006, 5:53pm »
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So what's happening with #38 and #58?

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thebigham
Historian
Posts: 1158
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #10 on: Jul 28th, 2006, 11:56am »
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The K&K connects with the A&E at Kane (hardly used) and with the B&P at Mt. Jewett. The Kinzua Bridge is north of Mt. Jewett.

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ARA18
Historian
Posts: 565
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #11 on: Sep 8th, 2006, 4:36pm »
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Has anything happended since?

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Go Leafs!
CSX sucks!
American Viscose #6
Arcade & Attica #18
New York Centra; 4068/4080, Life's Good up here.
K4s 1361
Railfan
Posts: 117
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #12 on: Sep 17th, 2006, 12:00pm »
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Last i heard Mr. Cornell had embargoed his own railroad as unsafe.
 
Last night, (September 16th, 2006) GP-7 #38 was sitting in Marienville in front of the station. Most of the rolling stock in Marienville has been removed , the For sale Signs are gone, the Grounds have been cleaned up of debris and Mowed!! The Rail bus has been moved over by the roundhouse as was the MOW equipment.
 
Maybe they have been sold to someone else?!
 
I'm thinking maybe the B&P took over the line. No comfirmation however, but it would make sense. I did notice the Gettysburg is gone from the "Geep" though.
 
I was just going to ask you guys if you knew what happened, but i guess i have the most up to date info on movements anyway.


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I wish i was there when steam ruled the rails!!

The Brickleys from Germany Originals since 1750.
OC@T Fan
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Posts: 45
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #13 on: Sep 18th, 2006, 5:03am »
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In an E-mail I recieved from a guy at Western Pennsylvania Industrial ( they were trying to buy the line) He said that last he heard that passenger traffic was going to resume from kane to mt jewett the rest of the line Kane Jct to Clarion was to be scraped. Hope the scraped part isnt true. He also said that WPI and people from the Clarion County Agencys have been trying to get ahold of Mr. Cornell to work out the details about buying the line but he will not return messages or phone calls. so maybe cornell pulled his head out of his a.. and isnt going to give up and put some of his money back into the line.

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K4s 1361
Railfan
Posts: 117
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #14 on: Sep 22nd, 2006, 10:03pm »
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Talked to a Marienville Local I work with, He said he believes Mr. Cornell is in really bad health and has been ill for quite some time. All I know is the for Sale signs in marienville dissappeared about two weeks ago. The guy also said he saw some of the passenger cars stored in Marienville, (There are two semi streamlined Pullmans,and Two Celestory roof Pullman RPO cars there and three Open bay hoppers, One marked Erie Railroad in chalk on it and two expanded side unmarked but with Friction bearing trucks) Anyway two cars he saw were having their windows welded shut to make the cars more bullet resistant for the railroad they headed for in South America. He even asked the guy why the windows were being welded shut.
 
There is also two cabooses there, one with it's windows welded, it is a C&O Bay window style caboose painted red. The other is a standard caboose painted red.
 
There are alos Flat cars converted to open tourist cars.
 
In Marineville it was a small yard, there is an Old freight house, made out of glazed Blocks, An Three bay Roundhouse, several implements for M.O.W. also stored there as well as a "Railbus".
 
Anyway somebody has recently started to maintain the areas around the old passenger station and the frieght house kepping mowed etc. Somebody has moved the railbus to the roundhouse and GP-9 #38 is sitting in front of the passenger station and it wasn't there a couple weeks ago.
 
The last time i saw one of the Geeps operating there a couple years ago it was Belching Black smoke bad!!!
 
He still has some pullmans in Kane, and the Chinese Mikado he was running is stored there inside, Hard to tell what he'll do with those.
 
I'm gogin to photograph it all and i'll post pics when i do.


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I wish i was there when steam ruled the rails!!

The Brickleys from Germany Originals since 1750.
K4s 1361
Railfan
Posts: 117
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #15 on: Sep 24th, 2006, 2:10pm »
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I rode on a special excursion 9-23-06 From Marienville to a point about 3 miles north and back to Marienville, being ran special for the Marienville Oktoberfest!
 
I went to photograph various equipment and it turned out Mr. Cornell was there selling tickets for $2.00 a piece for a Half hour each way.
 
Consist was One Modified Boxcar into a open sided excursion car and one Semi streamlined pullman. Bieng pushed/pulled by Former Gettysburg GP-9 #39.
 
Observations: The rails are outright dangerous, Uneven tracks, the edges of the rails eaten away by rust, same with the spike plates, The rails are pitted grotesquely and the ends are no longer even with each other. The train could only go 5 MPH and the cars were rocking wildly looking as if they would jump the tracks.
 
To say this line is in bad shape is understating the problem, There are not words i can find to describe the shape of the Right of way and rails!!
 
This was probably the last time anyone will ever be able to ride on the Knox and Kane, unless someone(and i doubt they will) buys it and does some serious rehab on the line, I'm talking ripping everything up, relaying the ballast and the rails and ties!!
 
It does not look as if any maintnance has been done to the right of way since Cornell bought it from B&O in 1982! He asks for Grants from the state to work on it then never does when he gets them. It's a real disaster waiting to happen.
 
Hoever i will post pics when i get them developed tommorow.


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kburkey
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Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #16 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 8:33pm »
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Looking forward to seeing your photographs of the 23rd.  I hope that you'll be able to post them.
 
Keith


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PilotinControl
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Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #17 on: Oct 4th, 2006, 12:31am »
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Hello Group,
 
Well what needs to be done... would be this:
 
For example... take the old CQPA....its like the KNK...the OHCRR gave it back to the Columbiana port authority... the only customer left on the line: While the OHCRR moved its other customers to other convienent locations.. is in the process of buying the line out right...replacing the rails, ties, ballast, and other maintenance issues just to serve itself...it's about 36 miles of track...so.. if this one small industry can do this...then it wouldn't be too much trouble for the multi-million dollar company like Clarion Boards to do the same...would be in their best interest.. and would make perfect sense.. you own the railroad.. and you rely on yourself for on time service in stead of someone else...makes sense doesn't it?


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NHIWW
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Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #18 on: Oct 4th, 2006, 9:01pm »
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on Sep 24th, 2006, 2:10pm, K4s 1361 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...He asks for Grants from the state to work on it then never does when he gets them. It's a real disaster waiting to happen...

 
Is there any proof of this? If so, that is fraud/embezzlement. But I doubt that was the case.
 
Most of us average joe railfans fail to realize the actual costs associated with maintaining a railroad.  The dribble of a grant program that the State of PA gives out to the various short lines, while significant compared to other states, is in no way large enough to maintain an entire right of way.  
 
You need another source of revenue to offset the actual costs....Read: FREIGHT.
 
But that's a catch 22...you can't operate frieght if your trains are constantly derailing, damaging property and also contents of the cars. But you can't rebuild the RR without the revenue generated by freight.  
 
The average tourist passenger revenue has never cut the cake on any railroad, save for the Strasburg and the White Pass who both surpass the 400,000 rider mark annually.
 
Considering that on average, if this line is in as bad a shape as I have seen from photo's, a state grant of say, $250,000 could be eaten up in just one mile for ties alone.
 
 Now, how many miles does the K&K have?...what industry is there aside from the one company, what potential is there for increasing this industrial base? How many tourists did they haul?...what revenue did those tourist generate in the areas surrounding the RR?...
 
For a comparison that I can relate to: When the Wilmington & Western was looking into the cost of rebuilding their line in 1995 (prior to all flooding) the estimates they received came to, without anyone flinching, about $1 million per mile to bring their already maintained Class 1 right of way up to Class 2 standards...including bank stablization, drainage improvements,  replacement of 80# rail with 100# or greater, new ties and a ballast foundation to replace what existed.  Figured into that number  was Volunteer labor to offset costs and did NOT include Bridge upgrades that had to be done.  This also did not include improvements already made to just about every public and private grade crossing (new #130 rail, ties, ballast foundation and signals) starting in late 1980's.
 
W&W is 10.2 miles of RR ...or about $11,000,000 of improvments.
 
They are NON profit and are in an area that is highly populated and is so by people who "claim" the Railroad as their own and take pride in it, including local residents, Industries and Corporations that used the railroad for their benefit (parities, private charters, etc.) who had/have deep pockets, including political allies.  
 
Their freight operations, under seperate "for profit" operations, generated about 300 cars a year.  Nothing great, but for a 10 mile short line with only 2 customers (thankfully located before the first bridge) , in an area dotted with du Pont mansions, high end housing developments, farm land and Nature Preserves leaving little room for industry growth ...it's not bad either.
 
Also, the revenue generated by their passengers (average of 40,000 annually prior to floods) to the local economy (Resturaunts, Hotels, Nearby Attractions) showed the County and State the importance of the Railroad as a whole to the local economy.
 
With all this factored in, they showed merit and warrent for significant State and County aid.  They entered into an agreement with the state to rebuild the line over a 10 year period and work was begun in 1997.  
 
Where does the K&K stand?....Was the passenger operations part of a legit non profit entity able to seek out donations or was it a private business operated by Sloan like his other operations?....how much freight were they moving?...what potential was or is there for industrial growth?  Is there any real political motivation or allies to be heard of or community support?...and ultimatly is the owner(s) really that serious about the railroad or were they just playing trains?
 
Where does the K&K stand in bringing tourists to the Kinzua State park. For comparison, the Grand Canyon RR brings in a significant number of people who otherwise would probably drive their vehicles into the Park, and therfor help eliminate congestion and pollution....does the K&K have the potential to use this advantage?
 
There is a lot to factor into the equation.  
 
It's been said several times that any short line railroad that wants to stay in decent shape, better have 100 cars per mile shipped annually.  For the K&K, 50 cars a month...maybe 80 for Clarion Boards?....while significant indeed, it's not going to keep the K&K up to class one.


« Last Edit: Oct 4th, 2006, 11:48pm by NHIWW » Logged


K4s 1361
Railfan
Posts: 117
Re: Knox and Kane RR
 
« Reply #19 on: Oct 6th, 2006, 10:03pm »
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Look I don't really know where the Grant money went, I suspect some of it dissappeared in a windstorm however!(The Kinzua Viaduct tornado) But several locals have told me he got the money, but they have not seen any thing fixed with it, like the crossings or track. he does have several stacks of brand new Railroad ties sitting at the marienville yard however.
 
I Do think there is potential for business to move in if he would fix i, there was a Bio diesel refinery set to move into Clarion County but it fell through due to lack of relaible rail transport.
 
Thats the weird part of this, CLarion County is fighting for this railline and funding to improve it. Forest county Northeast of Clarion County could seem to care less, because industry can't be developed there due to the most of the land being Allegheny National Forest. However north of there again up towards Kane industry can be developed and rail traffic including freight is coming on to the K&K from A&E and B&P, and there is talk the Dinner train and "Caboose Campers"(These are cabooses he has fixed up into Campers to put on a siding in the Kinzua Viaduct park for weekend rentals) will resume between Kane and Mt. Jewett.
 
The talk for the rest of the line from Kane to the Allegheny River are everything from.."He's going to abandon everything from Marienville to the Allegheny river!" (This would ruin Clarions hopes of reviving the line unless they bought it. This would preclude there ever being a northern outlet though.) to "He's Going to abandon everything from kane to the Allegheny river!" depending on who you talk to.
 
Personally if it goes much longer without TLC, it will slowly fade away in place, the cars the tracks the engines........


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I wish i was there when steam ruled the rails!!

The Brickleys from Germany Originals since 1750.
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