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Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
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   Author  Topic: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area  (Read 713 times)
XPLORER
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Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« on: Mar 28th, 2006, 5:42pm »
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I know the WB&E along with the Susquehanna Connecting and the NYS&W at one time through lease was part of the Erie. What I want to know is who knows what about it? I have read conflicting reports on breaker service.  
 
Then I see where the Erie had a connection to the CNJ Canal branch or what I call the original Nanticoke RR in the Plains area at what I have seen refered to as the Plains Jct. I was not aware of any Erie presence in the Wyoming Valley until Lou_D showed me dead ROW I have driven by and over durring my driving career. (LOL I'm from the south west part of the valley How was I to know?)
 
Bill_B claims via the CNJ connection the Erie made it in to Hanover TWP/Ashley area I guess to Glenn Alden Huber breaker. Others have disputed this. What do the Erie guys have to say about it?
 
On My old maps (late 1800s)  I see the Nanticoke RR end in the Plains area and up river about 3 or 4 miles in the Inkerman area I see end of line mine track. No NAME GIVEN on the map to who's track it is but it is in the areas Lou showed me and in areas marked Penn Coal Co land on the map.
 
RR
 


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toddsyr

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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #1 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 6:26pm »
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Maptech has some great early historical maps. This may prove helpful to you. Here's the link:
 
http://historical.maptech.com/index.cfm?CFID=15988761&CFTOKEN=99670737
 
NOTE: My computer is going on 6 years old, the maps don't enlarge enough to see any good detail when I use Internet Explorer. When I browse with Firefox, the maps enlarge many times just by clicking on the maps once. You make the maps regular size again by clicking on the map once again. Hope this helps. Todd.


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Matthew_L
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #2 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 7:05pm »
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Erie accessed the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre region via:
 
1. trackage rights on the D&H Jefferson Division.
 
2. its own line between Susquehanna and Jessup, PA
 
3. a line that ran west from Lackawaxen to connections with WB&E at Hillside Jct, LV at Coxton, CNJ at Duryea Jct (?) and LWV at Duryea Jct.  
 
I don't know what trackage rights Erie had on CNJ itself. I certainly welcome any answers on that question, and you may wish to ask it in the CNJ forum, too.


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Matthew L

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XPLORER
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #3 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 9:47pm »
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Guys,
This looks like a good start.  
 
Todd  
thanks for the link. I checked that map system out once before about a year ago but they did not have maps for the Wilkes Barre area. They must update the data base as they go. As for your computer, mine is 7 years old Win 98 SE and I do all the work on it myself. I added an 18 " monitor and some new software and it runs like a champ. I got DSL a few months ago and I am happy. IM me if you want some suggestions.
 
Matt
Through the link Todd posted the confusion grows. The MINE Track I refered to before up river from the CNJ Canal Branch or the Nanticoke RR is marked on these maps and is named the Erie and Wyoming RR. These maps are dated 1892 1893
the WB&E is just under construction at this time period.
 
I will look into your 3 points and respond back. here is a link to my fave map I have this blown up on my wall.
 
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/pa/county/luzerne/1873/luzernbg.jpg
 
As far as the CNJ and LV Boards. That is were some of these questions began. They can be a hostile bunch on those threads. (LOL)  
Matt I know a great deal about the big 5 in my area DL&W/CNJ/LV/D&H and PRR but this ERIE through me a curve. The WB&E always seems to create confusion and the Plains area was a hot bed of rail activity in its day.
 
I guess this Erie and Wyoming is kind of like the Plymouth and Wilkes Barre RR and the Nanticoke Railroad. A little piece of something that will be much greater later in time and was all about the COAL.
 
So new questions.
 
Anybody know any thing about the Erie and Wyoming Railroad?
Also, Did the Erie have  a Division name for the Wyoming Valley areas it had track?
RR


« Last Edit: Mar 28th, 2006, 9:49pm by XPLORER » Logged
Andyt293
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #4 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 10:56pm »
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on Mar 28th, 2006, 7:05pm, Matthew_Langworthy wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Erie accessed the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre region via:
 
1. trackage rights on the D&H Jefferson Division.
 
2. its own line between Susquehanna and Jessup, PA
 
3. a line that ran west from Lackawaxen to connections with WB&E at Hillside Jct, LV at Coxton, CNJ at Duryea Jct (?) and LWV at Duryea Jct.  
 
I don't know what trackage rights Erie had on CNJ itself. I certainly welcome any answers on that question, and you may wish to ask it in the CNJ forum, too.    

 
Actually.......       The D&H had trackage rights on the (ERIE built and owned) Jefferson Railroad between Carbondale and Lanesboro.  The Jefferson Railroad was purchased by the D&H in the late 1950's and trackage rights were granted to the ERIE for 999 years.  When Conrail sold the former Lackawanna mainline between Scranton and Binghamton to the D&H in the 1980's it relinguished those trackage rights it inherited from the EL and the track between Carbondale and Lanesboro was abandoned and removed.
 
The ERIE had trackage rights on the D&H from Jessup to Carbondale.   The ERIE never had a complete line from Susquehanna to Jessup.  An early version of the SPV atlas showed such a line but it was publishing mistake that has caused a lot of confusion.
 
The Erie and Wyoming Valley Railroad was built by the Pennsylvania Coal Company using the much of the roadbed of the PCC's Gravity Railroad (not to be confused with the D&H's Gravity RR that ran from Honesdale to Carbondale) that ran from a connection with the ERIE in Hawley (near Lackawaxen) to Pittston by way of Avoca Yards.  The PCC later became a subsidiary of the ERIE and the E&WV became the ERIE's Wyoming Division.  More on this.
 
The ERIE interchanged with Lehigh Valley at Duryea Jct which was a short distance from the ERIE's Avoca Yards. The CNJ never came near Duryea Jct. The ERIE actually crossed over the CNJ/D&H trackage through Avoca.  The ERIE had a very busy interchange with the CNJ at Plains Jct which was actually closer to Jenkins Twp south of Pittston.  Plains Jct was located next to the No. 14 Colliery of the PCC.  The ERIE had trackage rights over the CNJ's Canal Branch which ran from Plains Jct to the CNJ mainline  in Miner's Mill.  From there the trains ran a short distance (less than a mile) on the main before diverging onto the Nanticoke Branch at Gardner's Switch in Parsons north of Wilkes-Barre and continuing onto the Ashley Yards.  See www.gingerb.com for a map of this arrangement.
The ERIE interchanged with L&WV (Laurel Line) at Pittston.
 
The Erie more than likely interchanged with the WB&E at Suscon (Susquehanna Connection).  The WB&E was owned/controlled by the NYSW which in turn was leased by the ERIE.  
 
Getting back to the Pennsylvania Coal Company.  This subsidiary of the ERIE built the aforementioned Gravity line between Hawley and Pittston and converted it to a regular steam line.   The PCC was a rather large concern in its own right and shipped a LOT of coal out of Wyoming Valley.  It's headquarters was located near the ERIE's Dunmore shops and is now a nursing home.    
 
The ERIE's Wyoming Division moved a lot of coal over three basic routes.  Coal destined for the New York City area would head over the Wyoming Division to Lackawaxen and then onto the ERIE's Mainline.  Coal headed to Buffalo would go north via the Moosic Mountain and Carbondale RR to the D&H and then onto the Jefferson RR and then the ERIE mainline at Lanesboro.  Coal destined south of Wilkes-Barre would be taken by ERIE trains to either an interchange with the CNJ at Plains Jct or directly to Ashley Yards via trackage rights on the CNJ's Canal and Nanticoke branches.
 
Hope this helps!


« Last Edit: Mar 28th, 2006, 11:02pm by Andyt293 » Logged

If I stand in Grandma's back yard in Georgetown and close my eyes real tight, I can still hear CNJ freights grinding up the backtrack......and smell the smoke from the brake shoes of a Tuscan Century 628 as it leads NE-84 through Georgetown Interlocking on its way to a meet with the D&H at W-B.....
Andyt293
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #5 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 11:09pm »
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Here are some maps that put everything in perspective.
 
 
 
http://www.gingerb.com/cnj_map_union_jct_to_gardners_switch.htm
 
 
 
http://www.gingerb.com/cnj_map_of_trackage_rights_over_d&h.htm


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If I stand in Grandma's back yard in Georgetown and close my eyes real tight, I can still hear CNJ freights grinding up the backtrack......and smell the smoke from the brake shoes of a Tuscan Century 628 as it leads NE-84 through Georgetown Interlocking on its way to a meet with the D&H at W-B.....
toddsyr

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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #6 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 11:15pm »
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You're welcome! Just trying to help. I've always thought of this NY Metro Gateway as a big bowl of spaghetti trackwise. Likewise with all the history behind it. Trying to figure out proper lineage can be very difficult indeed. Rails laid 100 years or more ago may have had half a dozen owners or more, on paper anyhow. The mountainous terrain adds to the difficulty as well. Parallel lines criss-crossing each other and such. Anyhow, I figure a good map is always a great place to start with. Good luck with it! Not much on the internet on the Erie and Wyoming RR, but here's what a Google search turned up:
 
From:  http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/ergazete.Html
 
"HAWLEY, Wayne Co., Pa. From New York, 126 miles. Came into existence with the Pennsylvania Coal Company. Original settlement called Paupack Eddy. For years terminus of the Pennsylvania Coal Company's gravity railroad connecting the mines of that company with the Delaware and Hudson Canal, and later with the Hawley Branch of the Erie. Gravity railroad was replaced by the Erie and Wyoming Railroad in 1881. Population, 2,000. Incorporated, 1882. Manufacturing. Silk mills, glass-cutting works, and glass factory; bluestone works. 4 churches; graded school; 1 newspaper; 1 bank; 4 hotels."
 
From:  http://www.rootsweb.com/~palackaw/news/news1889.html
 
As reported in the Scranton Republican, Monday, July 8, 1889, excerpted from Summr School article:
 
"Prof. DUDLEY left for Ithaca Saturday evening and returned last night.  This morning the class goes to Lehigh Pond, three miles north of Gouldsboro on the DL&W RR.  It is expected to ride over on some lumber cars to the mills near the pond.  The flora here will be different in great measure from that found anywhere else.  The train leaves at 9:50, returns at 6 o'clock.  Wednesday the class takes the 7:25 train on the Erie & Wyoming Valley Railroad to Wimmer's Summit, thence to Moosic Lake.  Friday the ascent of Bald Mount will be made either by carriage or on foot, as the members of the class may elect.  Class studies will begin Tuesday morning at 9 o'clock in the school of the Lackawanna.  The work and studies of the class for this coming week will be well worth the money it costs and those who join hitherto will find themselves amply repaid for the time and money spent by devoting a week's time to this study, some knowledge of which should be possessed by all.  The excursions are all to interesting points and the class work and lectures will be full of instruction." Todd.
 
 


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XPLORER
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #7 on: Mar 28th, 2006, 11:51pm »
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Andy glad you came in to the thread. I know you were present with Bill_B and others in the other forum when we touched on this subject. Great explanations on all matters. Thank You.  
 
The GINGERB SITE starts some of the confusion see the # 14 breaker pictures and descriptions on that site. They claim the WB&E serviced #14 and I can't see it. I could see the Erie later than 1900 but not the WB&E. I agree with the WB&E & Erie at Suscon. My postal county maps do not mention the E&W Railway at all. It is marked light track and loaded track so I knew it was mine track. It is on the 1893 maps Todd sent the link to.
 
The use of the Nanticoke Branch by the Erie blows my mind. I guess this would be the next question. When was the Plains Jct created? Both maps show the CNJ ending at the Canal in Plains and the E&W ending in Inkerman before 1900? So the time period would be critical to what I am trying to come up with.  
 
I know this the Nanticoke RR ran from Nanticoke along the base of the mountains on the South/west side of the Wyoming Valley through Wilkes Barre Township to Mill Creek then did a S turn from Miners MIlls to Plains and ended at the Canal along the River. After the L&S aquasition and the CNJ lease of the L&S the Nanticoke RR was CUT at the Double track after Gardners Switch and made part of the L&S Division of the CNJ then renamed the canal branch as the double track would meet back up at Union Jct area in Hudson.  
Thanx Rick


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Andyt293
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #8 on: Mar 29th, 2006, 2:10am »
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Rick, the Light track and Loaded track were the PCC's Gravity Line rails.  Technically they weren't mine tracks but an actual railroad as the line carried freight and passengers as well.  A great book on both the PCC and D&H gravity railroads is called (I believe) "Of Wire Ropes and Pulleys" and I believe it is published by the Wayne County Historical Society.  My copy is packed away at the moment so I can't give you the name for sure.
 
I looked the GingerB site tonight and saw the pictures that you're referring to.  I think the information may be incorrect.  The Laurel Line Chapter, NRHS 2006 Calendar has a picture of the No. 14 breaker and the only lines mentioned are the Erie, LV and a local trolley line.  Just speculation on my part, but maybe the ERIE forwarded traffic from this breaker to the WB&E and maybe that is what the Gingerb site is getting at.
 
Not sure when Plains Jct was created. I find the the Erie's Wyoming Division to be fascinating, but it seems that every bit of information that is turned up leads to more questions.  The amount of coal that moved over this line was unbelievable.  The line was actually doubletracked and signalled between Avoca and Scranton.
 
Here is a link to a Wyoming Division ETT: http://www.erielackhs.org/Erie/prototype/ErieEmployeeTimeTables.html
 
On page three of the timetable there is a notation that reads: "Between #14 Jct and Ashley, Central Railroad of Pennsylvania rules and timetable shall govern".


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If I stand in Grandma's back yard in Georgetown and close my eyes real tight, I can still hear CNJ freights grinding up the backtrack......and smell the smoke from the brake shoes of a Tuscan Century 628 as it leads NE-84 through Georgetown Interlocking on its way to a meet with the D&H at W-B.....
XPLORER
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #9 on: Mar 29th, 2006, 7:37am »
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Todd/Andy very good stuff.
 
Andy the Wyoming Division ETT is very neat with the Ashley reference.
The local Trolley line you mention would that be the LWV. aka the Laurel Line.
Hope to hear more on this.
RR


« Last Edit: Mar 29th, 2006, 9:15am by XPLORER » Logged
Andyt293
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #10 on: Mar 29th, 2006, 8:40am »
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Actually the local trolly line would the Pittston Line of the Wilkes-Barre Traction Company.  Laurel Line trackage ran paralell to the area but was at least a half mile away from the No. 14 Breaker and higher in elevation at that point.

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If I stand in Grandma's back yard in Georgetown and close my eyes real tight, I can still hear CNJ freights grinding up the backtrack......and smell the smoke from the brake shoes of a Tuscan Century 628 as it leads NE-84 through Georgetown Interlocking on its way to a meet with the D&H at W-B.....
Matthew_L
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #11 on: Mar 29th, 2006, 10:45pm »
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on Mar 28th, 2006, 10:56pm, Andyt293 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
The ERIE had trackage rights on the D&H from Jessup to Carbondale.   The ERIE never had a complete line from Susquehanna to Jessup.  An early version of the SPV atlas showed such a line but it was publishing mistake that has caused a lot of confusion.
 
<snipped>
 
Hope this helps!

It does. My own info on Erie in "anthracite country" is quite scant- just that early SPV atlas and Erie In Color. Old Reliable's operations in the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre region never had the same coverage in print/photo as other Erie operations.


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Best wishes to all,
Matthew L

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P.S. All aboard for the last train to Hammondsport!
edlvrr
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #12 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 9:59pm »
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I grew up and still live in Port Griffith, the Erie Wyoming division is in the woods behind my house. Besides no. 14, the Erie also served the Ewen breaker, no. 6 (Inkerman), Butler (site of Pittston plaza), no.9 in Hughestown. But west of Hughestown I'm a little foggy.  
The LV and Erie also interchanged cars at Plains Jct. Although, according to my late friend LV conductor Arnold Embleton, there wasn't much traffic.
From what I've pieced togteher the L&S/CNJ Canal branch was an effort to thwart the LVs entrance into the Pittston area. In 1866-67, the LV payed the L&B $25,000 for their Pittston branch, which ran from today's Pitt Jct. area to the Tompkin's breaker (behind Pittston hospital). I have a Pittston Gazette microfilm copy on this.
Another Wilkes-Barre Record article on the opening of the LV Mountain Cutoff tells of an LV-E&WV scheme to route eastbound LV coal trains over the E&WV to Avoca onto the Cutoff to avoid Pittston. No clue if this was ever accomplished.  
Old P&NY rr maps show where some of the canal bed was sold to the PA Coal Co. Ed Miller related to me that this became the private row of the Wilkes-Barre transit line between the south end of Port Griffith and the Plains Jct. area, where it went back on the street running.
Yes, you are all right about one thing, every answer on the Erie raises more questions.


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edlvrr
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Re: Erie/WB&E/CNJ In Wilkes Barre area
 
« Reply #13 on: Feb 23rd, 2007, 10:02pm »
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One thing I know for sure, the WB&E had nothing to do with the no 14. There is an error on the Gingerbread website. Otherwise a great source of information.
Researching the WB&E drives me crazy, worse than the Erie.


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