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End of an Era
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ClydeDET
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End of an Era
 
« on: Jan 13th, 2015, 10:36pm »
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Got the January TRAINS Magazine yesterday, and discovered that there will be no new locomotives from Electromotive-Diesel with 2-cycle prime movers, at least for domestic deliveries. Apparently they will continue producing parts and even complete 567/645/710 series engines for export locomotives and for replacing prime movers in reviously delivered units.
 
Tier 4 compliance is apparently beyond 2-cyles (they can make Tier 2 and with after-treatment Tier 3, but not Tier 4). But - Cat comes to the rescue with a couple of 4-cycle engines.
 
This will be important if EMD  ever gets  any significant domestic orders again, including for the dedicted passenger unit which they have ready to go.


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towny72
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Re: End of an Era
 
« Reply #1 on: Jan 17th, 2015, 8:46am »
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Yep as of 1/1/15 EMD was no longer eligible to manufacture locomotives for north american use.  
 
GE is cranking them out as fast as they can being the only player right now.
 
When I caught wind of this last summer I was shocked that EMD with CAT would not have a prime mover to meet tier 4 in time.  At close to 3mil per unit that is a huge financial blow.


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ClydeDET
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Re: End of an Era
 
« Reply #2 on: Jan 17th, 2015, 3:07pm »
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on Jan 17th, 2015, 8:46am, towny72 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Yep as of 1/1/15 EMD was no longer eligible to manufacture locomotives for north american use.  
 
GE is cranking them out as fast as they can being the only player right now.
 
When I caught wind of this last summer I was shocked that EMD with CAT would not have a prime mover to meet tier 4 in time.  At close to 3mil per unit that is a huge financial blow.

 
The EMD website says they can produce Tier 4 compliant locos using Cat 3500 and 125 series prime movers  - is that not true?


« Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2015, 3:07pm by ClydeDET » Logged
CHESSIEMIKE
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Re: End of an Era
 
« Reply #3 on: Jan 17th, 2015, 11:54pm »
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If they can find a buyer, they will. This is also on their website:
 
"All 710 engines are certified for U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Tier 2 as well as IMO Annex VI Tier 1, and we already surpass IMO Tier 2 (effective 2011). EMD is actively working on U.S. EPA Tier 4 and IMO Tier 3 standards, which are effective in 2014. The EMD two-cycle engine has responded well to the technologies required to meet these standards, and we expect to have more efficient and cost effective solutions due to inherent advantages over four-cycle engines."
 
Sounds to me like they are working on it, but not there yet. I seem to recall back in the dark ages EMD was the only one making a diesel that worked well and as a result became #1 in that department. I guess they forgot something along the way. Hmmm.
 
I hope they are able to get back in the field.
CHESSIEMIKE


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towny72
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Re: End of an Era
 
« Reply #4 on: Jan 18th, 2015, 12:51pm »
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Understanding the Tier system is like most of Gov regulation difficult to do.  
 
I deal with these things on the perimeter now, but by no means am I an expert. I even have a good friend that has a lot to do with new locomotives and understanding tier applications is in his words "extremely in depth" It was know at least in the industry as far back as 2012 that the 2 cycle EMD prime mover was not going to make the cut for tier 4. My guess is EMD was betting on GE having the same issues and having to develop expensive and cumbersome after treatment. This possibly would allow EMD to do the same and get one more run out of the 710 line.  GE through years of R&D was able to get to tier 4 without needing after treatment and thus the 2015 T4 GE ES44 series relatively from an operations standpoint was a seamless transition from the previous T3 ready locos.  
 
As for the Cat engines, remember Tier standards are different for  Locomotive vs Trucks vs Mining equipment vs power generation and on down the line. I am not sure exactly where 3500 series would fall into play. I know in the past the 3500s have been used for re-power applications and those fall under a completely different tier regulation.   Also I think the 3500s are sub 4000hp. As for the 125 series I am not familiar but I believe that is a heavy truck engine, most likely what progress rail would put in a genset.  They do offer a marine application engine thats over 4000hp but again a marine motor not sure if it could be modified to a locomotive, possibly this is the base for the next EMD prime mover that we eventually will see on the rails. A big part of this is cooling. This is why you see the modified rad on T3 GEs with further modification on T4 units. Also why you see the thicker rads on -8 equipment that is being upgraded. These marine units have a lot more cooling capability so being adapted to meet railroad T4 might be harder then one thinks.  
 
Bottom line and a shocking one is Cat/Progress do not have a prime mover ready for production to meet T4 in 2015. When this engine comes out they have a lot to prove vs GE. Fuel economy as well as Tier qualification are just a start if EMD wants to regain the top spot as a locomotive producer, a position many say they lost with the introduction of the SD50 but thats another story.


« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2015, 1:05pm by towny72 » Logged

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ClydeDET
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Re: End of an Era
 
« Reply #5 on: Jan 18th, 2015, 10:54pm »
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on Jan 18th, 2015, 12:51pm, towny72 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Understanding the Tier system is like most of Gov regulation difficult to do.  
 
I deal with these things on the perimeter now, but by no means am I an expert. I even have a good friend that has a lot to do with new locomotives and understanding tier applications is in his words "extremely in depth" It was know at least in the industry as far back as 2012 that the 2 cycle EMD prime mover was not going to make the cut for tier 4. My guess is EMD was betting on GE having the same issues and having to develop expensive and cumbersome after treatment. This possibly would allow EMD to do the same and get one more run out of the 710 line.  GE through years of R&D was able to get to tier 4 without needing after treatment and thus the 2015 T4 GE ES44 series relatively from an operations standpoint was a seamless transition from the previous T3 ready locos.  
 
As for the Cat engines, remember Tier standards are different for  Locomotive vs Trucks vs Mining equipment vs power generation and on down the line. I am not sure exactly where 3500 series would fall into play. I know in the past the 3500s have been used for re-power applications and those fall under a completely different tier regulation.   Also I think the 3500s are sub 4000hp. As for the 125 series I am not familiar but I believe that is a heavy truck engine, most likely what progress rail would put in a genset.  They do offer a marine application engine thats over 4000hp but again a marine motor not sure if it could be modified to a locomotive, possibly this is the base for the next EMD prime mover that we eventually will see on the rails. A big part of this is cooling. This is why you see the modified rad on T3 GEs with further modification on T4 units. Also why you see the thicker rads on -8 equipment that is being upgraded. These marine units have a lot more cooling capability so being adapted to meet railroad T4 might be harder then one thinks.  
 
Bottom line and a shocking one is Cat/Progress do not have a prime mover ready for production to meet T4 in 2015. When this engine comes out they have a lot to prove vs GE. Fuel economy as well as Tier qualification are just a start if EMD wants to regain the top spot as a locomotive producer, a position many say they lost with the introduction of the SD50 but thats another story.

 
 Interesting.
 
Company claims this:
 
For over 90 years, Electro-Motive Diesel has designed and manufactured locomotives unmatched in value and innovation. In fact, we have delivered more than 62,000 EMD-powered locomotives to over 75 countries around the globe.
 
Our F125 high speed passenger locomotive is the first new Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Tier 4 passenger locomotive to be sold in the world. At 125 miles per hour (mph), it is the fastest diesel-electric locomotive in North America. In spite of its impressive 4,700 horses of pulling power, it weighs only 280,000 pounds - the lightest locomotive of its type.
 
Powered by a Cat C175 series engine, our new F125 passenger locomotive is fast, clean and efficient and complies with Buy America regulations. We have packaged important safety features into this powerhouse including Crash Energy Management (CEM), using advanced world-class engineering techniques from Vossloh Rail Vehicles - our partners in design and manufacture of high speed components.


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towny72
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Re: End of an Era
 
« Reply #6 on: Jan 21st, 2015, 6:02pm »
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it all seems very odd.
 
Its ok to be a leader in the passenger locomotive world but that is a very small percentage of orders in North America.  
 
Right now EMD is missing out on a huge locomotive shortage in North America, BNSF, CN, CP, CSX, and NS are all leasing power until orders are filled (by GE only right now) due to traffic volumes. Granted this is already starting to cool off with the dip in oil demand. Its just hard to believe EMD missed out and isn't producing domestic freight locomotives right now.
 
On a side note has anybody noticed a dip in CAT stock, I know right now with a slow down in the Natural Gas drilling industry things have to be a bit slow at CAT.


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ClydeDET
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Re: End of an Era
 
« Reply #7 on: Jan 23rd, 2015, 9:29pm »
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on Jan 21st, 2015, 6:02pm, towny72 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
it all seems very odd.
 
Its ok to be a leader in the passenger locomotive world but that is a very small percentage of orders in North America.  
 
Right now EMD is missing out on a huge locomotive shortage in North America, BNSF, CN, CP, CSX, and NS are all leasing power until orders are filled (by GE only right now) due to traffic volumes. Granted this is already starting to cool off with the dip in oil demand. Its just hard to believe EMD missed out and isn't producing domestic freight locomotives right now.
 
On a side note has anybody noticed a dip in CAT stock, I know right now with a slow down in the Natural Gas drilling industry things have to be a bit slow at CAT.

 
Yep, have noticed that dip. Mainly a construction equipment pretty well world-wide as I understand it.
 
Have been somewhat surprised that Cat hasn't been a bit more aggressive in getting EMD back into a competitive posture.
 
And - if the passenger prime-mover meets Tier IV at 4700 HP, I see no reason it  wouldn't do the same in a freight hauler. After all, more a matter of the trucks and gearing applied that differentiates a passenger and freight unit. I'm sure the engine they use in that F125 passenger unit would drop right into an SD and then - Bob's their uncle. But what, being only an outside observer, would I know?


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