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BRWRuckus
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #320 on: Jan 21st, 2008, 9:22am »
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Your "source" has incorrect information. As previous posts have said, work was suspended late last Autumn. However, work has indeed resumed on a regular basis at Ringoes.
 
There is not a timeline for this project other than....it will get done. The steam volunteers are doing an excellent job and making steady progress. The project is fully funded and the end result is sure to put a smile on all of our faces.
 
I'll admit, my patience has been tested at times by the extended nature of this project. I started at BR&W during the summer of 2000, and was only able to enjoy #60 in operation until that November when she last ran. I can't wait for her return to service either!


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Michael Shea
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #321 on: Jan 21st, 2008, 12:27pm »
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on Jan 21st, 2008, 9:22am, BRWRuckus wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Your "source" has incorrect information. As previous posts have said, work was suspended late last Autumn. However, work has indeed resumed on a regular basis at Ringoes.

 
I take you at your word......and it's good news to hear.  You didn't need to refer to my source in quotes, however, as he is one of the BR&W volunteers.  Knows a lot about what goes on there, but could be wrong in this case.  


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Colin Barner
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #322 on: Jan 21st, 2008, 12:55pm »
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Why we would not push for opening day of 2008, I have no idea.  It truely makes NO SENSE.  The bottom line is that the boss man does not care and all of the hard working volunteers are busting their a$$es for something that WILL make him a profit.  We are all trying so hard but the boss won't follow through.  
 
So the question is...who is the fool here? Is it the boss man who doesn't care if the thing turns a wheel again...or us volunteers who are doing the work for nothing...or dare I say...being used?   I understand this is like beating a dead horse, but with all the frustration I simply cannot help it.  I'm sorry.


« Last Edit: Jan 21st, 2008, 12:56pm by wm734_fan » Logged
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #323 on: Jan 21st, 2008, 1:34pm »
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Colin-
 
I would suggest that you not get too worked up about the project. One thing I learned over the years is that if anything, when volunteers are pushed to a certain deadline, things are done hastily and you wind up going back to redo what was not done correctly.
 
Be glad you have the opprotunity to work and learn about the enigne and steam in general. If you burn yourself out now at such a young age, which you seem to be doing, you will start to NOT like what you're doing and fall away from the hobby...afterall, that is just what it is...a hobby.
 
Volunteers are always used...thats why we give our time up...to be used. You're not getting paid, and if you were, you would be used even more so.
 
Chill out and enjoy it. When 60's running in the future, you'll see how much your "used" time was worth.


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Re: #60
 
« Reply #324 on: Jan 21st, 2008, 4:54pm »
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Seeing #60 run again would be the best sight at that railroad.  She's my favorite steam engine, hands down <sigh>...

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Colin Barner
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #325 on: Jan 21st, 2008, 6:11pm »
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on Jan 21st, 2008, 1:34pm, NHIWW wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Colin-
 
I would suggest that you not get too worked up about the project. One thing I learned over the years is that if anything, when volunteers are pushed to a certain deadline, things are done hastily and you wind up going back to redo what was not done correctly.
 
Be glad you have the opprotunity to work and learn about the enigne and steam in general. If you burn yourself out now at such a young age, which you seem to be doing, you will start to NOT like what you're doing and fall away from the hobby...afterall, that is just what it is...a hobby.
 
Volunteers are always used...thats why we give our time up...to be used. You're not getting paid, and if you were, you would be used even more so.
 
Chill out and enjoy it. When 60's running in the future, you'll see how much your "used" time was worth.

No one is being "used" if the people in charge care and the thing keeps running, NHIWW.  But apparently, things do not work out this way at Ringoes, if you have not noticed.


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Re: #60
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« Reply #326 on: Jan 21st, 2008, 8:03pm »
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Hello, I've not posted to this forum before, but I rode behind the 60 years ago; it is a fine locomotive and I look forward to buying a ticket riding again.
 
As for volunteering, you have to approach it strictly as a matter of personal fulfillment.  I volunteer from time to time with a large railroad museum in the south and I can assure you that the issues and frustrations are not unique to Ringoes.  But in the end, it doesn't matter what duty I get assigned to, or how any of us may feel about the overall priorities established by others.  What matters is learning new skills, learning to work as part of a team, and having the satisfaction of seeing the job done, and done right.  
 
Volunteer groups that support a for profit business always have to walk a fine line, but without them, the economics of rebuilding a steam locomotive are such that it might never happen.  
 
Good luck to one and all on this project.
 
Alan Maples  
 



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MachinistBoy46
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #327 on: Jan 21st, 2008, 8:51pm »
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Colin-
 
   AHAH my friend you are growing up indeed. Your feelings are basically why I gave up volunteering onthe Porter 46 at Pine Creek. As Im sure you`re beginning to see, the poltical Bull**** and ego battles and such suck all the enjoyment out of projects like this.
     My advice to you, and seriously, is go out and do things and have fun. I gave up damn near all of my teenagerhood for that damn railroad (pine creek) and blew off my friends so many times i cant count (and subsequently lost some of them). Once I broke away from pine creek for awhile, I  realized that the beach is fun...and so is the mall....and so is travelling and going places with friends. And while I still go to the railroad, its maybe once or twice a month, and its more fullfilling now that its not the only thing in my life. Im not bashing your work in any way, because the world needs more young people involved in historical stuff like this. All I `m saying is moderation is the key.......dont burn yourself out. Take care   -Chris L.


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Re: #60
 
« Reply #328 on: Jan 21st, 2008, 9:22pm »
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on Jan 21st, 2008, 8:51pm, MachinistBoy46 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Colin-
 
                  AHAH my friend you are growing up indeed. Your feelings are basically why I gave up volunteering onthe Porter 46 at Pine Creek. As Im sure you`re beginning to see, the poltical Bull**** and ego battles and such suck all the enjoyment out of projects like this.
               My advice to you, and seriously, is go out and do things and have fun. I gave up damn near all of my teenagerhood for that damn railroad (pine creek) and blew off my friends so many times i cant count (and subsequently lost some of them). Once I broke away from pine creek for awhile, I  realized that the beach is fun...and so is the mall....and so is travelling and going places with friends. And while I still go to the railroad, its maybe once or twice a month, and its more fullfilling now that its not the only thing in my life. Im not bashing your work in any way, because the world needs more young people involved in historical stuff like this. All I `m saying is moderation is the key.......dont burn yourself out. Take care   -Chris L.

I second that, Colin.  While railroading is a worthwhile endeavour, it's a lot better in moderation.  It's just like alcohol in that regard!  Too much of it will make you sick.  And you already know that.  I can say from personal experience that I wish I didn't spend so much of my teenage years practically living at the railroad...there were so many more things I could have experienced.....  Either way, enjoy and take care.


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NH-CLINKER FIGHTER
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #329 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 7:49am »
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That place is going to hell in a bucket it seems hope things get better for ya Colin
          later,
            Mark


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BRWRuckus
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #330 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 9:28am »
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I understand your frustration with the lack of urgency to this project. A lot of people do not want to hear this, but here it is: the steam engine does not turn a profit. It does not draw massive crowds (with the possible exception of its first few months back in service), and it is a money pit.
 
There are reasons to maintain it: it IS a draw for volunteers. I think we all agree that we are more motivated to go volunteer at the railroad when steam is running. After all, steam is pretty sweet. Operating the steam locomotive also contributes to the fullfilment of our mission to preserve railroad history and educate the public about it.
 
So in a nutshell: once you get past the educational aspects of the steam locomotive it is......a really cool marketing tool. That's the bottom line. It's something we all love and enjoy, but it is also a huge budget line item. That is why the railroad GM's position has basically been to let this project run its course without much pressure or intervention (yes, there have been exceptions along the way). If he didn't care, there would be no money for the project and the locomotive would have been sold years ago. That's not the case.
 
As for our time spent working on projects such as this: Some of the other guys mentioned this and I will too: we do this because we want to. Our pay, reward, compensation, whatever you want to call it is the pleasure that we get out of doing the work we do at the BR&W. If we don't enjoy it, then we do not have to participate.
 
It's easy to get burnt out with this stuff and it happens to me too every now and again. If you are frustrated, just take a couple weeks away from the place and don't think about it until you get back. You're a member of the Trust, so if you want to talk about anything in more detail please email me or call me so I can help you out. My contact info is on the phone book in the Members Portal.
 
Sincerely,
Mike
 
 
 
 
on Jan 21st, 2008, 12:55pm, Colin Barner wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Why we would not push for opening day of 2008, I have no idea.  It truely makes NO SENSE.  The bottom line is that the boss man does not care and all of the hard working volunteers are busting their a$$es for something that WILL make him a profit.  We are all trying so hard but the boss won't follow through.  
 
So the question is...who is the fool here? Is it the boss man who doesn't care if the thing turns a wheel again...or us volunteers who are doing the work for nothing...or dare I say...being used?   I understand this is like beating a dead horse, but with all the frustration I simply cannot help it.  I'm sorry.



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Re: #60
 
« Reply #331 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 12:54pm »
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It would be interesting if someone who works at the NH&I RR could comment on this since they run steam on a regular basis.  How do the numbers match up?  Do more people come out to ride the train when a steam engine is on the head, or is it pretty much a wash (but part of the railroad's mission)?  I'm not alluding to anything; I'm just genuinely curious and would like someone who knows to comment about it.  
 
BTW, if steam is that much more of an added expense, I'd be very happy if the railroad acquired and ran an ALCo diesel!    


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Anthony_SRR
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #332 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 3:27pm »
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I feel your pain guys. But if you are not enjoying your self it is not worth going and working. That is the only reason I still go to the museum I volunteer at (Railroad Museum of Long Island) 60 will get done just be patent. At RMLI allot of frustration has come out of our steam engine LIRR 39. But if you like what you are doing, have fun doing it and ignore the people that try to bring you down with things like “Why isn’t that engine done, it has been how many years” I can’t tell you how many times since August I have heard that online or in person…. Hope I did not go off topic
 
Anthony


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Re: #60
 
« Reply #333 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 4:06pm »
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I think part of the frustration is actually working it and knowing how little there is left to be done before the next step and how long it feels like we have been at the same point.  I'll admit I haven't been able to come out much lately mainly due to school and working at another railroad that as of right now which pays my bills, but I do keep tabs on how the restoration is going and I must say all the stuff that Mr. Shea mentioned was done by the last time I visited 60 in October, I wonder what has done since then.  I do know for fact that people are working on her, I just do not know what has been done since then.  I definitely hope 60 comes out not just for the ridership but for VOLUNTEERS!  Would be nice to see those DL&W cars on the trains again.
 
Speaking of the DL&W cars and I know this is way off topic but I have to say I'd almost much rather see those DL&W cars fixed up and ran before 60 comes out.  I still don't understand why they are out of service.  They really don't look too much worse than what the BRW already runs, at least on a glance (and I don't mean cosmetically).  Does anybody know exactly why they were taken out in the first place rather than not maintained?  
 
BTW GP9_engineer though I'm sure you have a clue as to the ridership at NH&I I can defiantly say there seems to be more ridership at NH&I than at BRW.  There was one week during the summer I worked at both locations, and both were sunny days.  I was at NH&I as fireman on a Wednesday and Black River & Western on a Sunday.  NH&I had more than double the ridership on that Wednesday than BRW did on the Sunday.  So I do think steam makes a difference in whether or not people show up to the RR, perhaps not as much once they are already there, as I have seen good ridership days at NH&I with 2198 out front, though it probably has a little to do with the location of the NH&I as well.  I ain't no fancy "xspurt".   Oh and when it comes to an Alco how bout an RS1?
 
 
Probably one of those posts I'll either modify to an extreme or delete.  Shall see how it plays out.
 
~Casey


« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2008, 4:16pm by Super_foamer » Logged

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Colin Barner
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #334 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 4:57pm »
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Mike,
 
People work on steam (at least everywhere else but BRW) so it can run.  There's no fun in restoring the engine, however it is a learning experience and it is for the locomotive to RUN again, which is they "pay check".  I don't believe our idea of fun is rolling tubes and flues in the steam locomotive.  We do it so #60 can run again and so the public can learn about how a steam locomotive works.
 
You also stated that a steam locomotive on the BRW won't make a difference in profit.  I may be a youngster but I can certainly tell you that is completely false, at least everywhere else.  Look around you.  You'll figure out why the BRW is not doing as well as it should be, the steamer not being the main reason but certainly one of the big impacts.  The truth is in the middle for volunteer interest and ridership interest.
 
Also, NHIWW said we should be happy to work on steam in general.  If you can show me the steam, that would be great, because all I see is a giant hulk of iron.  All volunteers are not being used if what they are volunteering for is put to a good use or cause.  I certainly am not "burned out" by the project (haven't worked on the girl since August because of football season).  And with no written "schedule" for volunteers to work, it is very difficult to judge when people will be working.  Believe it or not, I do have a life outside of trains, could you imagine??  And I can't spend half of it trying to figure out when the shop doors are going to be opened up so work can continue.


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farok
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #335 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 7:41pm »
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To my knowledge, final preparations are under way for a hydro test.  A low-pressure test of some sort was also completed, and minor leaks found in that test are being remedied.  Slow, but yes there is progress.  As for ridership, I have to agree with Mike.  I've grown up around the place, and have seen statistics that back it up -- it doesn't matter what pulls the train.  Marketing, the economy, and other factors play a much bigger role, which the trust is spearheading quite well.  Again, maybe starting slow a year or two ago, but definitely making progress.  Things are looking up.
 
Consider that the railroad has in the last 10, maybe 20 years or so catered primarily to the visitors in the outlets, and the majority of the shoppers are not tech saavy and couldn't even tell you whether there is a steam engine running or not.  Unfortunately that's the reality of the crowd that tends to shop in Flemington these days.  Marketing to this crowd will bring more ridership than the steam engine will.  Combine the two well, though, and I agree then that you may have a great winning combination.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see 60 run again - she's my childhood in motion!  But I can't argue with Mike's comments on why the GM is approaching the project the way he is.  I patiently await the day that 60 rolls down the rails under steam again!!  And, she can be a great marketing tool to boot like Mike mentioned as well!


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Re: #60
 
« Reply #336 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 8:07pm »
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on Jan 22nd, 2008, 4:06pm, Baldwin_feeder wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I think part of the frustration is actually working it and knowing how little there is left to be done before the next step and how long it feels like we have been at the same point.  I'll admit I haven't been able to come out much lately mainly due to school and working at another railroad that as of right now which pays my bills, but I do keep tabs on how the restoration is going and I must say all the stuff that Mr. Shea mentioned was done by the last time I visited 60 in October, I wonder what has done since then.  I do know for fact that people are working on her, I just do not know what has been done since then.  I definitely hope 60 comes out not just for the ridership but for VOLUNTEERS!  Would be nice to see those DL&W cars on the trains again.
 
Speaking of the DL&W cars and I know this is way off topic but I have to say I'd almost much rather see those DL&W cars fixed up and ran before 60 comes out.  I still don't understand why they are out of service.  They really don't look too much worse than what the BRW already runs, at least on a glance (and I don't mean cosmetically).  Does anybody know exactly why they were taken out in the first place rather than not maintained?  
 
BTW GP9_engineer though I'm sure you have a clue as to the ridership at NH&I I can defiantly say there seems to be more ridership at NH&I than at BRW.  There was one week during the summer I worked at both locations, and both were sunny days.  I was at NH&I as fireman on a Wednesday and Black River & Western on a Sunday.  NH&I had more than double the ridership on that Wednesday than BRW did on the Sunday.  So I do think steam makes a difference in whether or not people show up to the RR, perhaps not as much once they are already there, as I have seen good ridership days at NH&I with 2198 out front, though it probably has a little to do with the location of the NH&I as well.  I ain't no fancy "xspurt".   Oh and when it comes to an Alco how bout an RS1?

The BR&W had an RS1 (two operating RS1's at one time, and a T6), but like all the other good things once there, it too is gone.  
 
The only upside I see to the long restoration period for 60 is the thoroughness of it.  When she's steamed up (should I say if ?), she'll hopefully be in great shape.  Can't be disappointed about that!  


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Re: #60
 
« Reply #337 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 9:23pm »
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Way to go man if I decide to delete my post its there in a quote for all eternity! haha  And you know I am well aware of  the 57.  Though I would love to see another T6 at the RR.  That would be another Alco I would LOVE to run haha.
 
Oh I'll say one more thing cause I say it is fun to talk talk talk on these boards, and whine and complain all the sort, (I'm amazed nobody complained about the complaining haha) but the only way to instigate any real change is to actually show up to the RR and work toward change, either through volunteer time or the all mighty dollar.  I feel that much of these comments especially my own aren't really constructive.    I do have things I would probably do differently if I was the GM but I'm not and the RR is still running so he can't be doing that bad of a job.  Yeah the steamer is just a marketing tool but it is a good one I think and it is well worth the effort being exerted to have her steam once again.  
 
 
~Casey


« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2008, 9:45pm by Super_foamer » Logged

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Re: #60
 
« Reply #338 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 10:01am »
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Yeah, the "T-bucket" (T-6) would be an awesome engine to have running!  Just wishful thinking nowadays...   There is a lot of talk on this board; although it won't change things, I think it's a good pulse on the rail enthusiasts' outlook on things, and I think there are several who post here (myself included) who [i]do/i] lend our time to the BR&W by volunteering.  I've done so in the past, and hope to continue doing so when the '08 passenger season begins.  The bottom line is we all want to see the railroad succeed and grow (and I think it will, albeit  very gradually)...

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BRWRuckus
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Re: #60
 
« Reply #339 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 10:07am »
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Colin,
 
I agree with your description of your goals here. You want to see some results come out of your labor, as we all do, and that's the way it should be. There is no doubt that having the steam locomotive operate helps further our mission and bring a sense of satisfaction to our volunteers.
 
I am not privy to the details of the costs of this project. I do know that the complete restoration/overhaul project, once completed, will have cost upwards of $100,000. That's steep. Consider the amount of additional people that would have to ride the train over the next several years to cover that cost and bring a positive return. You and I aren't in this to make a heap of cash for the railroad or ourselves, but unless the railroad turns a profit it will cease to exist like any other business. And the higher the profit, the more money is available for the sort of capital improvements we all long to see happen.
 
The numbers don't lie. In preparing our marketing plans for last year (and this year) I had access to BR&W's ridership figures from, well, forever. The highest numbers after the first few years of operation always peaked during years that steam was not operating. Always. No exceptions. That's not because people don't like steam. Steam DOES bring out some people to the railroad that would otherwise not have come. But those people are a minority compared to our core market: families. There is real value in operating the steam engine and I do believe it can become an integral part of what we do. Unfortunately the possibility that it will be able to pay for itself without additional subsidy is slim to none.
 
Mike
 
 
on Jan 22nd, 2008, 4:57pm, Colin Barner wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Mike,
 
People work on steam (at least everywhere else but BRW) so it can run.  There's no fun in restoring the engine, however it is a learning experience and it is for the locomotive to RUN again, which is they "pay check".  I don't believe our idea of fun is rolling tubes and flues in the steam locomotive.  We do it so #60 can run again and so the public can learn about how a steam locomotive works.
 
You also stated that a steam locomotive on the BRW won't make a difference in profit.  I may be a youngster but I can certainly tell you that is completely false, at least everywhere else.  Look around you.  You'll figure out why the BRW is not doing as well as it should be, the steamer not being the main reason but certainly one of the big impacts.  The truth is in the middle for volunteer interest and ridership interest.
 
Also, NHIWW said we should be happy to work on steam in general.  If you can show me the steam, that would be great, because all I see is a giant hulk of iron.  All volunteers are not being used if what they are volunteering for is put to a good use or cause.  I certainly am not "burned out" by the project (haven't worked on the girl since August because of football season).  And with no written "schedule" for volunteers to work, it is very difficult to judge when people will be working.  Believe it or not, I do have a life outside of trains, could you imagine??  And I can't spend half of it trying to figure out when the shop doors are going to be opened up so work can continue.



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