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"Chicago Heritage"
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NYC_Subway_Fan
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Posts: 1443
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #80 on: Oct 15th, 2015, 7:44pm »
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Here's a couple of photos of the RTL-III's.
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1989903
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1989803
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1989751


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Alan,

Take care and take trains!
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #81 on: Oct 15th, 2015, 8:04pm »
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on Oct 15th, 2015, 7:44pm, NYC_Subway_Fan wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Here's a couple of photos of the RTL-III's.
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1989903
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1989803
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1989751

 
GREAT photos......appreciate your posting these here!
 
Despite the modern "ACELA" scheme, these unique trainsets still retain their distinctive "Euro" look, which always reminded me of the old TEE sets in Europe, back in the 1960's.
 
IMHO, I think believe that these units could still be providing service today; truly a waste of both cash and effort to have the remaining sets simply rust away......
 
"L.F.L."


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #82 on: Oct 15th, 2015, 8:11pm »
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These "Turbo" photos date between 2001 and 2002......
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk153bsm.jpg
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk154cm.jpg
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk153asm.jpg
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk155bsm.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #83 on: Oct 15th, 2015, 8:17pm »
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These "Turbo" photos all date to 2001.....
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk-turbo-asm.jpg
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk-turbo-bsm.jpg
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk-turbo-esm.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


« Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2015, 8:18pm by CLASSB » Logged
NEFAN
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Re: "Chicago Heritage"
  Amtrak_UA_Turbo_S_Kearny_NJ_10281_3.jpg - 36816 Bytes
« Reply #84 on: Oct 16th, 2015, 9:25am »
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Ugh! what a waste.  
 
Reminds me of the the UA Turbos when they were stored at the end. Kearny NJ. None of these were saved either.


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/Amtrak/Amtrak_UA_Turbo_S_Kearny_NJ_10281_3.jpg
Click Image to Resize

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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #85 on: Oct 16th, 2015, 10:35am »
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NEFAN:
 
I totally agree 100% (I believe the infamous rail scrapper, "NOPORANO" , of Newark, scrapped these unique and historic trains)
 
Take notice that, since the long-gone era of the TurboLiners and UA Turbotrains, that AMTRAK has never sought to return to diesel-powered trainsets.
 
The ACELA concept could have ineded been a "proving ground" of sorts for a new generation of diesel-powered trainsets, but, as is clear, that concept is one that AMTRAK does not wish to return to.
 
The original late 1960's MU "METREOLINERS", too, were supposed to be ushering in a new fleet of modern high-speed MU trains, but, it was not all that long before the high-speed MU concept also fell out of favor, with AMTRAK returning to the more conventional locomotive-hauled trains on the NEC.....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2015, 11:56am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #86 on: Oct 16th, 2015, 11:11am »
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A UA "Turbo" in happier days......
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk-uat1-ad.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #87 on: Oct 16th, 2015, 11:52am »
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See also:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAC_TurboTrain
 
(note that AMTRAK retired the trains from revenue service in 1976)
 


« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2015, 11:54am by CLASSB » Logged
NYC_Subway_Fan
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Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #88 on: Oct 16th, 2015, 9:08pm »
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on Oct 15th, 2015, 8:04pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

IMHO, I think believe that these units could still be providing service today; truly a waste of both cash and effort to have the remaining sets simply rust away......

 
Well consider this:
 
At the time that then Amtrak President David Gunn pulled the 2 active RTL-III trainsets from service in 2004, along with the third set that had just been delivered to Amtrak from Supersteal and never run in revenue service; the current Amtrak President Mr. Joseph Boardman was the NY State Commissioner of DOT.  As the head of the NY State DOT, he was furious that Amtrak and specifically David Gunn pulled those rebuilt trainsets that NY State had paid for.  So much so that he had NY State sue Amtrak over the matter.
 
Mr. Boardman is now the second longest serving Amtrak CEO, behind only W. Graham Claytor, Jr., serving from 2008 to present.  And despite his major opposition to the actions of former Amtrak President David Gunn in pulling the units from service, Mr. Boardman has taken NO steps to restore those 3 trainsets to service.
 
Which makes me at least think that he's learned something during his tenure as Amtrak's CEO that now leads him to believe that those trainsets aren't worthy/suitable for use.  Be it the Air Conditioning problems, the fuel consumption issues, or something else.  Or perhaps the combination of a bunch of issues.
 
He now has the power to order those 3 trainsets into service and there is NO one who could refuse his direct order, even though they might warn him against it and maybe even drag their feet in implementing restoration.  But nothing has been done; the units remain in mothballs.


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Alan,

Take care and take trains!
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #89 on: Oct 16th, 2015, 9:32pm »
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Alan:
 
A great little "editorial" on your part; thanks for sharing this info here with us.
 
By itself, that so much money was spent rebuilding these trainsets, trainsets that now sit in a prolongued state of limbo, is a glaring example of ineptness.
 
IMHO, these trains (at some time in their later service lives) could have been withdrawn from service one unit at a time, for rebuilding/updating/upgrading.
 
This now is reminding me of how AMTRAK has been operating the nation's intercity trains for 44 years now, and still has not turned a profit.
 
I am also now reminded of the BMT "Multi-Section" cars, which were in their mid-20's when the NYCTA retired them in 1961.
 
Like the "Turbos", they were "oddballs" in a fleet that was becoming more and more standardized as the the 50's and 60's progressed.
 
The "Turbo" sets remaining, I feel, still have a number of years left in them, and, to see these units simply reposing in a state of limbo because of the ever-fluctuating, ever-fickle whims of "The Powers That Be" is to see yet another Triumph Of Ineptness.......
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2015, 9:34pm by CLASSB » Logged
NYC_Subway_Fan
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Posts: 1443
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #90 on: Oct 17th, 2015, 12:00pm »
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LFL,
 
Well part of the decision to rebuild the trainsets was made by the man whom many would consider the most inept President of Amtrak ever; the late, George Warrington.  The man who gave us the line "Amtrak is on a glidepath to profitability" or something like that and then ended up mortgaging NY"s Penn Station because he wasn't gliding very well.
 
But a major part of the decision was also political on NY State's part; no surprise there.  The State wanted to be able to point to all the jobs created by rebuilding those trains within NY State.  The old, "look at what we did", even if it didn't actually make fiscal sense.
 
It was a trade deal, the State would rebuild the trainsets and Amtrak would pay for track improvements to get higher speeds.  The state didn't oversee its part of the project very well at all and Amtrak was stymied on their part of the project by lack of funds and CSX's unwillingness to allow track improvements due to the state's excessive tax rates on RR property.  The state finally did rework the tax laws to lower the rates and let go of their huge cash cow.
 
But by that time, Amtrak was in real trouble financially.  Penn had just been mortgaged and Warrington was on his way out.  When David Gunn took over as Amtrak President, he quickly saw that the rebuilds were major problems.  And looking for a way out of the trade deal, as he didn't have the money for track improvements at that time, the poor qualify of the rebuilds was an easy out for him.  It was actually a smart idea.
 
And the problems are large with those rebuilt trainsets.  While I won't say with 100% certainty, I've heard from a reliable source that the only way to fix the AC problems is to strip out the innards of the cars and basically start over.  That would be a huge expense!  That's a lot of money to spend on something that is now more than 40 years old.
 
Throw on top of that the huge fuel consumption issues, I've heard that the current trains can basically make 3 trips to/from Albany on the same amount of fuel used to make two trips with the turboliners; and the expense simply isn't worth it.
 
Amtrak needs to be spending its money on replacing the Amfleets soon, beefing up the Superliner fleet and replacing the Superliner I's, replacing the P42's soon, and starting a replacement of the Acelas.  At least IMHO.
 
Am I sad to see the Turboliners go?  Yes!
 
But alas, the numbers just don't add up for them!


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Alan,

Take care and take trains!
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #91 on: Oct 17th, 2015, 12:35pm »
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Alan:
 
Again, let me say "Thanks" for an excellent, well-written, and VERY informative "mini-thesis'!
 
Certainly, you and I BOTH know that politics (at any level) and railroads usually make for a very unhealthy (and often volatile) mix; odds are, that, in the end, there will be tremendous cash expenditures, but very little in the way of any sort of concrete progress.
 
That AMTRAK has yet to have turned a profit during its 44 years of running passenger trains speaks many, many volumes, you may be sure.
 
You mentioned the AMFLEET cars, now senior members of AMTRAK's rolling stock; I (like many other fans I am sure) will be very sad to see them go, as they truly are (IMHO) the most iconic and most identifiable of any AMTRAK equipment, past or present.
 
Those cars truly are iconic AMTRAK cars, and long familiar to the general public as well.
 
That they have been clattering along the rails since the 1970's surely adds to their resilient hardiness.
 
I will always mourn the passing of the GG-1's and the E60's, but, it will be difficult indeed to envision an AMTRAK without their trademark "AMFLEET" cars.
 
Time flies....much too fast....for my tastes......
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2015, 1:45pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #92 on: Oct 17th, 2015, 12:46pm »
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Taken far to the east of Chicago, this vintage scene at Sunnyside Yards in Queens evokes many memories of what I term as "Classic Era Amtrak"; E60's, AMFLEET, and HERITAGE cars all serve to date this now-nostalgic scene......
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk-sunyd-adl.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #93 on: Oct 17th, 2015, 12:54pm »
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Chicago, 2008.
 
In this view, the AMFLEET cars are clearly in the minority.
 
(Looks like a C&O-painted private car is in the mix as well)
 
IMHO, the AMFLEET cars are especially noteworthy in AMTRAK's history, as they were the first cars designed especially for carrier.........
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk-chicy-sea.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2015, 1:43pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #94 on: Oct 17th, 2015, 5:10pm »
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AMFLEET facts, stats, paint schemes, etc.
 
The very first of these long-familiar cars hit the rails in 1975; when AMTRAK took over running the nation's passenger trains in 1971, it inherited some 1200 cars.
 
Needless to say, many were in need of upgrading and maintenance; another issue was that many were incompatible with other car types.
 
It is no wonder why the AMFLEET standardization was so needed at the time......
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amfleet


« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2015, 6:00pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #95 on: Oct 17th, 2015, 10:28pm »
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Far west of Chicago, in 1979, we see AMTRAK equipment awaiting servicing at Los Angeles.
 
Here is an interesting assortment of "Heritage" cars; note no AMFLEET cars are to be seen.....
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk-lacy-wwd.jpg
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/amtk-lacy-wwb.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2015, 10:34pm by CLASSB » Logged
NYC_Subway_Fan
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Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #96 on: Oct 18th, 2015, 7:30pm »
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on Oct 17th, 2015, 12:35pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Alan:
 
Again, let me say "Thanks" for an excellent, well-written, and VERY informative "mini-thesis'!

 
You're welcome!
 
on Oct 17th, 2015, 12:35pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Certainly, you and I BOTH know that politics (at any level) and railroads usually make for a very unhealthy (and often volatile) mix; odds are, that, in the end, there will be tremendous cash expenditures, but very little in the way of any sort of concrete progress.

 
Of this I have no doubt!  You can't have 500+ managers who know nothing about running trains controlling the purse strings and setting agenda's/standards about which they know nothing.
 
The best thing that could ever happen to/for Amtrak, would be for Congress to simply admit that they have no idea how to run a RR and just appropriate $2 to $3 Billion each year without question.  The current way of doing things precludes Amtrak from having any hope of truly turning things around.  It's very hard to enter into long term contracts, and order things months in advance when you can get a discount, when you don't know how much money you're going to get until you're already 3 months into the new fiscal year.
 
Imagine  trying to decide if you can afford a mortgage to buy a new house when your boss refuses to tell you how much he's going to pay you next year.  
 
on Oct 17th, 2015, 12:35pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
That AMTRAK has yet to have turned a profit during its 44 years of running passenger trains speaks many, many volumes, you may be sure.

 
I'm not sure that Amtrak can ever cover 100% of its total expenses.  At least not until such time as all subsidies are eliminated for roads & highways, as well as flying; and I'm not sure that would be a good idea either.  But with proper capital support I do believe that Amtrak could reach a point where it does manage to cover its operating costs via the fare box.
 
on Oct 17th, 2015, 12:35pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
You mentioned the AMFLEET cars, now senior members of AMTRAK's rolling stock; I (like many other fans I am sure) will be very sad to see them go, as they truly are (IMHO) the most iconic and most identifiable of any AMTRAK equipment, past or present.
 
Those cars truly are iconic AMTRAK cars, and long familiar to the general public as well.
 
That they have been clattering along the rails since the 1970's surely adds to their resilient hardiness.
 
I will always mourn the passing of the GG-1's and the E60's, but, it will be difficult indeed to envision an AMTRAK without their trademark "AMFLEET" cars.
 
Time flies....much too fast....for my tastes......
 
"L.F.L."

 
And yes, alas, their days too are numbered. Time does march on whether we like it or not.


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Alan,

Take care and take trains!
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #97 on: Oct 18th, 2015, 8:00pm »
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Alan:
 
I am now thinking of the propositions/talks.thoughts over the past several years of AMTRAK focusing solely on the NEC operations, and let other another operator(s) run the non-NEC trains.
 
When one considers that AMTRAK trains are quite often delayed by the freights of non-passenger carriers (recall, years ago, when PASSENGER trains took priority over FREIGHT?) one can only wonder what this situation would be like if indeed AMTRAK pulled out from all non-NEC operations, and those passenger trains now operated by perhaps another government agency or, a 'host" railroad.
 
IMHO, I think in many situations, AMTRAK is indeed in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, in many venues.
 
Getting back to Chicago, in a matter of speaking, if AMTRAK pulled out of non-NEC operations, perhaps the new operator would have Chicago as their "hub".
 
Just some random thoughts......
 
"L.F.L."
 


« Last Edit: Oct 18th, 2015, 8:03pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #98 on: Oct 20th, 2015, 1:48pm »
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These handsome and distinctive ex-MILWAUKEE sleepers were snapped at Chicago, on a sunny day in 1972.......
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/milw-slpr-dca.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2015, 1:49pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: "Chicago Heritage"
 
« Reply #99 on: Oct 20th, 2015, 2:00pm »
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16th St. engine shops, Chicago, 1972.
 
Here we also see, in addition to a variety of power, some ex-N&W cars, as well as a steamer that was sadly scrapped sometime after this photo was snapped......truly a waste.
 
Note yellow "doghouse" tender just behind the steamer; perhaps it was an MOW car at the time.
 
A truly interesting old photo of what once was.......
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/amtk/pc-chi18ET-dca.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)
 


« Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2015, 2:10pm by CLASSB » Logged
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