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Train Wreck in Philadelphia
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NYC_Subway_Fan
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #20 on: May 22nd, 2015, 8:55pm »
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on May 22nd, 2015, 2:24pm, Overmod wrote:       (Click here for original message)
That it could have been prevented just as well with tone-modulated automatic train stop from the Thirties is a bit of a red herring -- any of the ATC systems developed under the Esch Act provisions that had speed restrictions or aspect restrictions would have worked, too.  

 
I concur with much of what you wrote, it was the FTC as much as anything, that delayed the implementation of PTC in this area.
 
But it most certainly isn't a red herring to say that ATC would have prevented the crash.  Amtrak already had ATC setup to prevent a train headed RR west (south to laymen) from taking that very same curve at too high a speed.
 
And now, thanks to the FRA mandate and probably just commons sense on Amtrak's part, that curve is now protected in the eastbound direction by the old Pennsy ATC system.
 
Unfortunately what that now means is that trains have to travel at 45 MPH from basically the North Philly station through the curve, instead of being able to go 80 MPH almost all the way up to the curve.
 
PTC once implemented will fix that issue and allow for higher speeds through North Philly; gradually slowing as the trains approach the curve.


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Alan,

Take care and take trains!
TAB
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Posts: 1908
Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #21 on: May 23rd, 2015, 1:22pm »
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......has there been any discussion of simply putting another crew member in the cab? I wonder what that would cost as compared to the purchase, installation and maintenance of these automatic signal systems. Implementation would appear to be quicker as well....Tom  

« Last Edit: May 23rd, 2015, 1:23pm by TAB » Logged

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HwyHaulier
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #22 on: May 24th, 2015, 9:50am »
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TAB - Lodge Members -
 
Noted yours. In reporting on this disaster, the Railroad Brotherhood groups urging this approach. Your writer doesn't give this  
good odds. It would be charges to expense, not capital items...
 
This on YAHOO! NEWS this a.m. It may be helpful Then again, it may not?
http://news.yahoo.com/know-now-deadly-amtrak-derailment-183617486.html
Meanwhile, in another item, Katie Couric (of all people) concerned about deteriorating infrastructure. And, the beat goes on...
 
..............................Vern............................


« Last Edit: May 24th, 2015, 10:17am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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ClydeDET
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #23 on: May 24th, 2015, 5:28pm »
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I don't see the investigation of the cell-phone usage as meaning the NTSB thinks he was using it - just that they want to know. "Driving while distracted" is a major issue for all modes of transportation and is probably always something that should be investigated (remember the MetroLink/UP Freight wreck in Kali where it turned out to be probably the major cause).  
 
Niece got rear-ended in Houston Tuesday. Don't know if the Honda Accord that hit her Ford Escape totaled the Escape, yet. But - the Honda driver said "I was looking at my GPS"... Don't know if the Honda driver was hurt, but if so I am without any sympathy whatever. Andrea has back and neck injuries, apparently soft-tissue injuries, and how serious, currently unknown. But she is hurting right now.


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George_Harris
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #24 on: May 24th, 2015, 9:31pm »
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Vern:  As a regular reader of NTSB reports, the list in that article of points that the NTSB is studying looks like part of their standard list of points to check off.
 
I am still unnerved every time I see a picture of that car folded 90 degrees.  At least it is all still together, unlike the cars after the collision with the bridge at Eschede where some of the cars virtually disassembled into kits with the sides, top, and floor as separated pieces, for some not even next to each other.


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Overmod
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #25 on: May 25th, 2015, 12:45pm »
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on May 24th, 2015, 5:28pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I don't see the investigation of the cell-phone usage as meaning the NTSB thinks he was using it - just that they want to know.

 
It's not that the NTSB is looking into it -- it's that the media are reporting about it, over and over, always trying to make out through innuendo that there WAS phone use ... "the same day" ... that they're having to check timestamps to verify he wasn't using the phone, making him look like a liar when he says he wasn't, all the usual demonization techniques that a careful manipulation of facts, semantics and language can provide.  Nothing that can't be plausibly denied, of course, later, but expect the coverage of any news about his NOT being on the phone to be run in a couple of column inches on page 17, if at all.
 
It would have been just as simple to have presented the information in a non-pejorative or nonprejudicial manner.


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George_Harris
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #26 on: May 25th, 2015, 1:18pm »
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on May 25th, 2015, 12:45pm, Overmod wrote:       (Click here for original message)
It would have been just as simple to have presented the information in a non-pejorative or nonprejudicial manner.  

Now, now, you know that won't happen.  
 
Ever been part of an event that made the news?  Was it recognizable?  Usually it is not.  That is even more true if it is international.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #27 on: May 25th, 2015, 1:37pm »
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on May 25th, 2015, 1:18pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Now, now, you know that won't happen.  
 
Ever been part of an event that made the news?  Was it recognizable?  Usually it is not.  That is even more true if it is international.  

 
Well, yes, sort of. Common-law husband/boy-friend of a gal who lived down the street shot momma's son. Cops arrived just before we did after church, and wouldn't let us go home until they were finished with the scene (two house down).
 
I got interviewed by the local TV station a couple of days later. They actually ran the interview, or part of it, and it was accurate. Shooter sat in the can for a while, then was no-billled and released, and had his gat returned.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #28 on: May 25th, 2015, 4:23pm »
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on May 24th, 2015, 9:31pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Vern:  As a regular reader of NTSB reports, the list in that article of points that the NTSB is studying looks like part of their standard list of points to check off...

George - Lodge Members -
 
Exactly! NTSB charged to find, "...the facts, ma'am... just the facts...! No problems with it here.
 
The wrecked BUDD Car (first in consist)? That truly a shock to my sensibilities. Over the years, had not seen a BUDD do that...
 
................................Vern.............................
 
 


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ClydeDET
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #29 on: May 25th, 2015, 6:13pm »
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on May 25th, 2015, 4:23pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

George - Lodge Members -
 
Exactly! NTSB charged to find, "...the facts, ma'am... just the facts...! No problems with it here.
 
The wrecked BUDD Car (first in consist)? That truly a shock to my sensibilities. Over the years, had not seen a BUDD do that...
 
................................Vern.............................
 
 

 
No, I haven't seen a Budd peeled open that way either. But then i haven't seen one slammed into a catenary support at over 100 MPH, either....


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ClydeDET
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #30 on: Jun 10th, 2015, 5:33pm »
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News from NTSB today - whatever else was involved in the driver losing situational awareness or whatever it was that led to him entering a 50 mph curve from and 80 mph stretch of track at over 100 mph - it wasn't talking or texting on his cell phone, unless he had a spare that he trashed before the Feds starting looking (I can be paranoid).

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HwyHaulier
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #31 on: Jun 11th, 2015, 8:45am »
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Clyde - Lodge Members -
 
Ah, Clyde! Paranoia is a healthy survival skill. Besides, as your writer understands, you are an earlier time and active member of the Bar.  
Seasoned in the cohort have their own ways of taking care of matters, with suspicions of motives of anyone involved with a case...
 
No! Your writer cannot subscribe to any theory of a "throwaway" cell phone. Right! A cute workaround, but... Had such a device been  
on scene, where is it? Unlike a "drug bust" case, the "person of interest" could not have swallowed it?
 
Here, cannot figure why the operator (engineer) went "off the charts". Now, we have our esteemed Congress of a collected mind of the
urgent and immediate need for "PTC". They don't read or know history. The former line operator, PENNA RR, had built in the needed
protections in the 1930s!
 
................................Vern..........................


« Last Edit: Jun 11th, 2015, 12:55pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

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ClydeDET
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #32 on: Jun 11th, 2015, 7:47pm »
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on Jun 11th, 2015, 8:45am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde - Lodge Members -
 
Ah, Clyde! Paranoia is a healthy survival skill. Besides, as your writer understands, you are an earlier time and active member of the Bar.  
Seasoned in the cohort have their own ways of taking care of matters, with suspicions of motives of anyone involved with a case...
 
No! Your writer cannot subscribe to any theory of a "throwaway" cell phone. Right! A cute workaround, but... Had such a device been  
on scene, where is it? Unlike a "drug bust" case, the "person of interest" could not have swallowed it?
 
Here, cannot figure why the operator (engineer) went "off the charts". Now, we have our esteemed Congress of a collected mind of the
urgent and immediate need for "PTC". They don't read or know history. The former line operator, PENNA RR, had built in the needed
protections in the 1930s!
 
................................Vern..........................

 
I doubt there was one, but be easy enough to toss it under something and after that - well, wouldn't want it found, since they could have the Feebs or NSA break it and then question whoever it was talking to. Need to jerk the SIMM card and hit it with a hammer a couple of times...
 
And yes, my prior profession left me with permanent (mental) scars and suspicions. Actually, BOTH my former professions had that effect - soldiering in a war zone makes you pretty suspicions of potential problems. And have a physical scar from that...


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #33 on: Jun 12th, 2015, 8:50am »
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Clyde - Lodge Members -
 
This item on YAHOO! NEWS this a.m. Speaks for itself...
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-10/amtrak-s-automated-signals-may-not-work-near-freight-trains
 
..........................Vern..........................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Train Wreck in Philadelphia
 
« Reply #34 on: Jun 12th, 2015, 5:18pm »
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Yep, surely does. As always, the REAL guarantee of safe operation is alert, well-trained employees, eh?

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