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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
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HwyHaulier
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #40 on: Apr 26th, 2010, 7:37am »
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Clyde - All -  
 
All can check the 'web and learn the SWA has constant departures on the Dallas - Houston lane. To labor the quite obvious, it is a "private sector"  
operator, and makes net money at it...
 
It would be rude, tacky and in bad taste, seems to me and IMHO, if we suddenly had a publicly funded competitor to commence services on the lane.  
Without doubt, the new and wonderful option would demand endless additions of "other people's money" and world without end.
 
It would be nice, if it all touches off a tsunami of public funds, to have something in there to buy out the interests of SWA. I think we have some law  
there are to be no seizures without compensation...
 
........................Vern......................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #41 on: Apr 26th, 2010, 4:02pm »
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The original Teexas Triangle proposal in the '90s would have been private competition - but Herb and the boys bought enough legislators to insuire that it wouldn't ahppen.
 
I'd feel more like SWA was a true private operation and worthy of protection if tjhey had bought their terminals and runways instead of using (at nominal cost) airports already built - with public money....


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #42 on: Apr 26th, 2010, 4:38pm »
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Clyde -  
 
I'm not so sure I would begrudge SWA use of the public airports. Maybe you have done the back of the envelope arithmetic. I can't figure how  
it is possible to operate a public airport, and not have net money left over at the end of the day. Of course, there is no explaining completely  
inept management...
 
I surely appreciate your remarks that Texas HSR appeared as a private enterprise proposal. It contradicts the endless nay saying that no net  
money can ever be made in passenger work!
 
......................Vern..................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #43 on: Apr 26th, 2010, 8:03pm »
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on Apr 26th, 2010, 4:38pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde -  
 
I'm not so sure I would begrudge SWA use of the public airports. Maybe you have done the back of the envelope arithmetic. I can't figure how  
it is possible to operate a public airport, and not have net money left over at the end of the day. Of course, there is no explaining completely  
inept management...
 
I surely appreciate your remarks that Texas HSR appeared as a private enterprise proposal. It contradicts the endless nay saying that no net  
money can ever be made in passenger work!
 
......................Vern..................

 
Vern - i don't BEGRUDGE SWA (or other airlines) the use of the various airports. i just don't like them getting the use and then saying "We ain't subsidized at all and shouldn't have to compete with subsidized rail ventures".
 
i will note that i have some real doubts as to whether the original Texas HSR would in fact have covered the carrying costs on the (borrowed, mostly) capital outlay and operational costs and turned a profit. or if it did, wouldn't have been soon. But Herb and his band of merry purchasors of legislative favors and advertising time at SWA made sure nobody ever found out. That i don't much approve of, didn't at the time and don't now.


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George_Harris
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #44 on: Apr 26th, 2010, 8:19pm »
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Aside from Herb buying, buffaloing or whatever chunks of the legislature it was his very dishonest propoganda campaign that got to me.  The reality is that the Texas Triangle could have easily been the world's cheapest high speed railroad on a per mile basis.  It would be hard to find easier terrain anywhere.  Yet Herb and cohorts were shouting a price per mile that would built urban subways.  

« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2010, 8:20pm by George_Harris » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #45 on: Apr 26th, 2010, 10:28pm »
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on Apr 26th, 2010, 8:19pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Aside from Herb buying, buffaloing or whatever chunks of the legislature it was his very dishonest propoganda campaign that got to me.  The reality is that the Texas Triangle could have easily been the world's cheapest high speed railroad on a per mile basis.  It would be hard to find easier terrain anywhere.  Yet Herb and cohorts were shouting a price per mile that would built urban subways.  

 
Well of COURSE he was dishonest. That (along with buying key legislators) was what it took to protect his rice bowl. And man was he good at it. An honest and fact based camapign would - not have worked. indeed, an HONEST man would have either been quiet or have said "You know, this will put me out of business on these lines, and that's OK, because it will serve the people of Texas a lot better. And I've got plenty of other routes that I'll whip the snot out of any other mode of transport. Including high speed rail" - and he'd have been telling the absolute truth.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #46 on: Apr 27th, 2010, 9:16am »
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Clyde - George - All -
 
Seems "Mr. Herb" followed a venerable precedent? Going back a few chapters, the implied, "...What would John Rockefeller do?..." on news of a possible  
startup competitor in the oil business?
 
"Subsidy"? Sigh! That gets to be such a "...here and there and everywhere..." kind of word, especially as used in reports in mass media. No consideration  
ever, it seems, whether claimed subsidy is a net user of funding, or if project returns a net surplus.
 
Just about any example is completely vexing. As we are noting SWA. On its startup, who subsidized who? Dallas Love Field sat there, deserted by trunk  
line air carriers. We may assume the airport authority offered attractive fees and charges to SWA? Or, in low fares on startup routes, did SWA subsidize  
others? See the problems? It is a classic Chinese Finger Trap novelty?
 
Sigh! And, to think this thread started with prospects of a Cleveland - Hornell, NY secondary? <G>
 
.......................Vern..................


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jmlaboda
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #47 on: Apr 27th, 2010, 6:22pm »
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This link was posted to the Atlas N-scale Forum and I thought you all might be interested in it.  Apparently flying isn't all that it is cracked up to be and some folks are turning back to rail travel despite the time difference in arrival.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36596550/ns/travel-destinations/


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ClydeDET
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #48 on: Apr 27th, 2010, 6:58pm »
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on Apr 27th, 2010, 9:16am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde - George - All -
 
Seems "Mr. Herb" followed a venerable precedent? Going back a few chapters, the implied, "...What would John Rockefeller do?..." on news of a possible  
startup competitor in the oil business?
 
"Subsidy"? Sigh! That gets to be such a "...here and there and everywhere..." kind of word, especially as used in reports in mass media. No consideration  
ever, it seems, whether claimed subsidy is a net user of funding, or if project returns a net surplus.
 
Just about any example is completely vexing. As we are noting SWA. On its startup, who subsidized who? Dallas Love Field sat there, deserted by trunk  
line air carriers. We may assume the airport authority offered attractive fees and charges to SWA? Or, in low fares on startup routes, did SWA subsidize  
others? See the problems? It is a classic Chinese Finger Trap novelty?
 
Sigh! And, to think this thread started with prospects of a Cleveland - Hornell, NY secondary? <G>
 
.......................Vern..................

 
Actually, when SWA started, it was far from the only tenant at Dallas Love Field - not least because D-FW wasn't open (it was under construction). I had a job at Love Field in 1971, when SWA was getting underway, and can tstify with certainty about taht - and about the hot pants its stewardesses wore and the extraordinary efforts its baggage smashers made to get the bagagge to the claim area before deplaning passengers arrived.
 
SWA atarted up after all the majors had contactually undertaken to mpve to D-FW when it opened (part of the price Fort Worth demanded to participate in the financing of D-FW - they wanted no repeat of what had happened at SWA, they insisted on Love Field being shut down essentially).  
 
Nobody really expected SWA to be much player and through an oversight (and apparently that is just what it was, an inadvertent oversight, a clause left out of the contract for gate space). its gate elases didnt include "and we agree to leave Love Field and go to D-FW when it opens".  Dalals even tried, without success, to force SWA out of Love. Quite a heady sort of a brew, really.
 
SWA has been rather a surprise to all, and from up-start it has become a super-major player and model.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #49 on: Apr 28th, 2010, 9:59am »
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Jerry -  
 
A positive piece about rail. The writer wisely had this as a Travel article. Nice warm and fuzzy with anecdotes, soft data and debatable assertions. The  
underlying fact phenomena being: In marketing of near any product or service, each individual buyer makes their own assessments of what to buy.  
There is near always a group of "swing voters" as it were...
 
On your general remark about air services? Sigh! It ain't easy anymore. From at terminals scenes, there is a real market for "Dirtball & Unwashed Air"  
for some of the travel segments! This ain't much an "ahead of the curtain in the cabin" clientele. And, heaven forbid one should have a bottle of after  
shave or nail polish remover in the carry on! Ever notice, when we had a great rail system, US lines did not offer Third Class (Steerage) Coach and  
Excursion services?...
 
Some time back, it was so easy! In my own experience, it was just get to San Jose, and buy a PSA ticket for LAX. Then, walk across the ramp, and  
board a 727 thru the center, rear, drop down stairs. D. B. Cooper put a stop to that! The experience gone a bit after end of the WP California Zephyr.
 
................................Vern................


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ehbowen
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #50 on: Apr 30th, 2010, 7:29am »
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on Apr 28th, 2010, 9:59am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Some time back, it was so easy! In my own experience, it was just get to San Jose, and buy a PSA ticket for LAX. Then, walk across the ramp, and  
board a 727 thru the center, rear, drop down stairs. D. B. Cooper put a stop to that! The experience gone a bit after end of the WP California Zephyr.
 
................................Vern................

 
[nitpick]Actually, you could still board a 727 through the rear airstair after D. B. Cooper; I did so several times at Hobby Airport when Hughes Airwest started service from Burbank in the late '70s (before they remodeled the terminal). I even did so as late as 1998 when I worked at the airport (the Northwest gate agent had invited me to take a look at their all-first-class 727 which had been customized for NBA charters). You just couldn't open that rear door IN THE AIR, that's all.[/nitpick]
 


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #51 on: Apr 30th, 2010, 7:56am »
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Eric -  
 
Thanks! Foggy memories being what they are, I had assumed an immediate "cause and effect" impact of the D. B. Cooper Affair.
 
The rear door and stairs on the B-727 and DC-9 an advantage for regular, schedule operations in and out of smaller markets. The rear stairs  
required less ramp support, and helped quicker times in and out of stops...
 
Good to learn you have done the "in the trenches" in the business. I have not had any airline employee experience, but have worn out my  
share of seats in the cabins. Present state of the art, and many learn why we use the word "ambivalent feelings" which suggests a love/  
hate relationship...
 
.................Vern.................


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ehbowen
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #52 on: Apr 30th, 2010, 10:06am »
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on Apr 30th, 2010, 7:56am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Eric -  
 
Thanks! Foggy memories being what they are, I had assumed an immediate "cause and effect" impact of the D. B. Cooper Affair.
 
The rear door and stairs on the B-727 and DC-9 an advantage for regular, schedule operations in and out of smaller markets. The rear stairs  
required less ramp support, and helped quicker times in and out of stops...
 
Good to learn you have done the "in the trenches" in the business. I have not had any airline employee experience, but have worn out my  
share of seats in the cabins. Present state of the art, and many learn why we use the word "ambivalent feelings" which suggests a love/  
hate relationship...
 
.................Vern.................

 
Actually, I wasn't in the airline business; I was (and am) in the air conditioning and building maintenance business. I just did so at Hobby Airport for two years (97-99); in those halcyon days before 9/11 the red badge gave me free run of the airport (save for the runways and taxiways). While there I took lessons and earned my private pilot certificate; unfortunately I am now on some medication which prevents my exercise of same.
 
The rear stairs, as you correctly note, were one of the items that made the B-727 so revolutionary. Another was that it was the first jetliner to have a built-in APU (auxiliary power unit, for ground power, air conditioning, and main engine self-starting) as standard equipment. Finally, the reverse thrust on the engines was so designed that you could "power back" the airliner using engine power alone--no tug necessary, although when possible pilots preferred using the tug as they hate backing up blind. The net (and intended) effect of all these design features was that you could operate a B-727 out of a marginal airport with a bare minimum of ground support. The triple-slotted Fowler flaps made it possible to operate from a modest (for jets) runway, then reconfigure the wing to climb like a bat out of hell and then cruise at near-sonic speeds. Truly a remarkable airplane--it was still being used in front-line air carrier service in 1998, 35 years after its first flight. It still performs comparable to or better than modern designs, save for fuel economy, noise, and the need for a third pilot. It truly was the DC-3 of the jet era.


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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #53 on: Apr 30th, 2010, 10:36am »
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Flown in a 727 many times and I agree. However, you left out one problem. You don't want to sit near the engines, rather noisy. If you like to catch up on your sleep in flight, sit near or across from the wings. Nice and  quiet there. And more stable in rough flight.

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ClydeDET
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #54 on: Apr 30th, 2010, 3:11pm »
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on Apr 30th, 2010, 10:36am, Pennsy wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Flown in a 727 many times and I agree. However, you left out one problem. You don't want to sit near the engines, rather noisy. If you like to catch up on your sleep in flight, sit near or across from the wings. Nice and  quiet there. And more stable in rough flight.

 
Yeah, didn't want to be in the far back on a Three-holer. And you wanted to be careful about where you sat in a prop job, too. I flew to Houston from Dallas in '68, as i had to go down there to recover my car (shipped from Germany) at Port of Houston.  A Braniff Electra II - and i got a seat almost right in line with the props. There was noise and vibration I still recall....


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #55 on: Apr 30th, 2010, 3:53pm »
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Pennsy -  
 
727s? It depended on the carrier. At the rear, PSA had a neat feature, both sides of the aisle, with three seats facing three seats. Great choice,  
if one traveling with two or three friends, and on a schedule where it didn't load heavily, anyway. Some of us lightly called it our "Conference Room"!
 
Noisier toward the rear? No problem. I could sleep thru that! I was bothered on a Reno - SFO, UAL trip, where something simply rattled and  
rattled. As UAL known for its experimenting with mods, it was anyone's guess what was happening...
 
Clyde -  
 
Electras? They were OK, after (ahem) engineering problems resolved. Bonus points awarded for miles on BNF! The US Navy had near endless  
use with them as P-3 types. (If you don't know, I can't discuss the missions! <G>)...
 
(Oh, Dear! We're off topic! <G>)
 
.....................Vern...............


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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #56 on: Apr 30th, 2010, 4:23pm »
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P-3's were used for submarine detection etc. MAD booms on the tail end. What blew me away was that huge tail hook on them. Can you imagine that bird on a Carrier ? They were fairly roomy inside, after you crawled all over the electronics. lol

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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #57 on: Apr 30th, 2010, 10:13pm »
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on Apr 30th, 2010, 3:53pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Pennsy -  
 
727s? It depended on the carrier. At the rear, PSA had a neat feature, both sides of the aisle, with three seats facing three seats. Great choice,  
if one traveling with two or three friends, and on a schedule where it didn't load heavily, anyway. Some of us lightly called it our "Conference Room"!
 
Noisier toward the rear? No problem. I could sleep thru that! I was bothered on a Reno - SFO, UAL trip, where something simply rattled and  
rattled. As UAL known for its experimenting with mods, it was anyone's guess what was happening...
 
Clyde -  
 
Electras? They were OK, after (ahem) engineering problems resolved. Bonus points awarded for miles on BNF! The US Navy had near endless  
use with them as P-3 types. (If you don't know, I can't discuss the missions! <G>)...
 
(Oh, Dear! We're off topic! <G>)
 
.....................Vern...............

 
Braniff lost one L188, near Buffalo, TX in 1959 and Northwest lost another near Tell City, IN in 1960. Braniff was my "hometown airline" and the flights I had on it were usually good experiences. Esepcailly the one from San Francisco to Dallas in late August, 1969 (probably should have taken the Cal Zephyr to Chicago and the Texas Chief home - except my Mom wouldn't ever have forgiven me for taking extra time for a train ride when i had just returned from SEA).


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Pennsy
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #58 on: May 1st, 2010, 10:30am »
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True enough, the rear of the 727 was great for spreading out and getting some work done. At the height of my travelling for company business, I would head for the rear seats, always empty, spread out, collect my thoughts, aided by a tall cool one, and write my reports. By the time the plane was in the landing pattern, all was finished and proof read, ready for my secretary, and the weekend was all mine, and the family's.

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HwyHaulier
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Re: Do you think, that revenune passenger service.
 
« Reply #59 on: May 4th, 2010, 1:20pm »
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Jonathan -  
 
Well, you did pose a most vexing hypothetical. Some of us around here are very familiar with the regional trains pre AMTK...
 
Some of the difficulties with what you posed?
 
Per a recent Trains item, evidently the AMTK mission is seven hundred (700) miles or more. So, surely it would be expected  
that a two-hundred and fifty (250) miles, end to end run would need agreement of the three States.
 
Then, the "public convenience and necessity" tests? In the travel market that exists, is it not adequately served by present  
motor carriers and airlines? A reality is that a lightly patronized train is quite a large burden on whoever operates the services.
 
In our somewhat rambling comments here, explanation of how cost burdens shared on earlier rail operations. Even quite  
marginal rail services were operated. Under today's rules, it cannot be practically or economically replicated.
 
......................Vern..................


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