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Santa Fe Trivia
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   Author  Topic: Santa Fe Trivia  (Read 773 times)
Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1726
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
 
« Reply #20 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 2:28pm »
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Hutch, thanks for shedding light on Santa Fe's practice of "re-cycling" train numbers.
 
Nos. 1 and 2, The Scout (1916-1949), became Nos. 1 and 2, The San Francisco Chief (1954-1971).
 
Nos. 21 and 22, The Missionary (?--? - 1936) became Nos. 21 and 22, The El Capitan (1938-Amtrak).
 
There were others:  Nos. 19 and 20, The Chief (1926-1968 ) were once Nos. 19 and 20, The de Luxe (1911-1917, and 1920-1922).
 
Nos. 9 and 10, The Kansas City Chief (1950-1967? ) were once Nos. 9 and 10, The Navajo (1914-1939).
 
 
Also, at the time covered by this employee Timetable (June, 1946) only the Super Chief and El Capitan were entirely Dieselized.  Even The Chief was not completely steam-free until sometime in 1947.  But the E-1s had likely been bumped from these runs, replaced by newer FTs.  The other Santa Fe varnish, however, was still wrapped firmly in the arms of Steam.
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2004, 2:29pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Hutch
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Posts: 120
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
 
« Reply #21 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 2:51pm »
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Was the 2900 the prototype for the 2900 class (as the 5000 was for the 2-10-4s)?  I note that the 1946 speed table has 2900 on it.

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Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1726
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
 
« Reply #22 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 3:13pm »
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Hi, Hutch,
 
I'm sure you're right.  I can't put my finger on a definitive source, but I am pretty convinced that Santa Fe practice was to name "classes" after the first locomotive delivered in that Class.  I think, also, that each new design modification and upgrade resulted in a new "class", which is why you will find several "classes" for each type of wheel arrangement.
 
This also proves that your eyes are sharper than mine.  I failed to notice the 2900 in the 1946 speed tables...  oops....  It appears, though that they listed all engines in each Class, so perhaps in June 1946 the 2900 was still alone.
 
But the Diesel Power for the Super Chief and El Capitan (still running twice-a-week in 1946) were likely the engines listed as "Freight Engines 160-162, 164, 165, 167".  These would have been the passenger-geared-and-painted FT sets, three sets assigned to each train.  You will notice that they were allowed 90 mph, as opposed to the 65 mph allowed for the other FTs.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2004, 3:30pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Pennsy
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Posts: 4586
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
 
« Reply #23 on: Jul 31st, 2004, 8:20pm »
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Hi Norm,
 
I recommend you download my table, " Time vs distance" on another thread, just for the fun of it. It goes up to 150 mph, and down to 30 mph. Enjoy.


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Dyed in the wool PRR fan.
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1726
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
  atsf3071green.jpg - 27095 Bytes
« Reply #24 on: Aug 12th, 2005, 2:50pm »
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Santa Fe's first foray into the world of streamlining was not an entire train, but the acquisition of three lightweight cars from three different builders.  In early 1936, Budd delivered their shotwelded stainless-steel Chair Car, No. 3070  This was apparently Budd's first full-size, independently-coupled stainless-steel passenger car of any type, delivered to any railroad.  Its number, 3070, continued Santa Fe's then-current numbering system, which already included heavyweight Chair Cars 3000 through 3069.
 
Then, in late 1936, The Pullman Company supplied 8-Section, 2-Drawing Room, 2-Compartment Sleeping Car Forward, which was Santa Fe's first lightweight Sleeper, and which was regularly incorporated into the consist of the then-heavyweight Super Chief.  
 
Also in late 1936, The St. Louis Car Company supplied Santa Fe with lightweight Chair Car No. 3071, which was built of Cor-Ten Steel, but not shotwelded Stainless Steel like Budd's Chair Car.  It was a genuine surprise to discover, just the other day, that this car received an apparently one-of-a-kind livery very different from the fluted stainless-steel we associate with Santa Fe streamlined trains.  Below is an "educated guess" as to the car's appearance.  A few caveats:  the drawing is not to exact scale, and is based on a black & white photograph, so the colors are conjecture.  I feel on fairly solid ground in assuming the car was painted dark Pullman green with gold lettering and piping, the better to "blend in" with heavyweight consists.  It is possible (though I think umlikely) that the car may have been Pennsy-style Tuscan red or even MoPac Navy blue, with either yellow or tan lettering.  If anyone has definitive proof one way or the other, please post it here !  It is certain that the roof was smooth silver, the sides were smooth (and riveted), and the undercarriage and trucks were black.  The interior was panneled in blond wood, and the window corners were more "squared" than in later lightweight cars.  The white window nearest the entry door was the "Annex" to the Ladies' lounge, then the Ladies' lounge itself with its large, circular wall-mounted mirror.  The main seating area contained 12 rows of two-and-two reclining seats (without leg-rests).  The last two windows line the corridor (note the railing along the windows) past the Men's lounge.  Note also the non-retractable steps.  As stated before, it appears that this was the only lightweight Santa Fe car to carry this paint scheme.  A true Santa Fe oddity . . .
 
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
 
This drawing is based on a photograph in The Car Builder's Cyclopedia of American Practice,  15th Edition (1940), published for the Association of American Railroads - Engineering Division, by The Simmons-Boardman Publishing Co., New York.


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« Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2005, 12:58pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
ForestRump
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Posts: 125
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
 
« Reply #25 on: Sep 2nd, 2005, 6:45pm »
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The eastbound Chief did not start leaving Los Angeles in the mid-afternoon and arriving in Chicago at dawn until 1958 I think, when the Super Chief and El Capitan were combined and the Chief took over El Capitan's schedule.  After getting coaches and a faster schedule in 1954, the Chief operated a few hours behind the Super Chief.  I have an Official Guide from late 1956 (I think; it's falling apart) that has the Super Chief leaving Chicago at 7 p.m. and the Chief leaving at 9 p.m.  The Super Chief arrived in Chicago at 12:30 p.m. and the Chief arrived at 3:00 p.m. after an early morning arrival in Denver.
 
As to the comments about travelling across the country in coaches, I did it on the City of Portland, the North Coast Limited, the Western Star (west of Grand Forks), the Empire Builder, the Canadian, the Super Continental (west of Winnipeg) and the CN's Panorama (east of Winnipeg to Toronto).  I don't recall ever having any trouble sleeping.  The coach seats on long-distance trains were very well designed. They tilted far back and had great leg rests.  You could practically lie down in them.  They were surpassingly more comfortable than airline seats and Amtrak's short-distance trains.
 
I also took Amtrak's Broadway from Chicago to New York once in th eearly 1980s and don't recall any problems sleeping in a coach seat either.


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Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1726
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
 
« Reply #26 on: Sep 3rd, 2005, 3:27pm »
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Forest, I sure envy you the cavalcade of name trains you got to ride!  Fantastic!
 
The eastbound Chief actually switched back-and-forth between mid-day and evening departures at least twice between its inaugural in 1926 and its "retirement" in 1967 (or was it '68?).  A timetable from the late '20s shows a 10:00pm departure from Los Angeles; by the late '40s, the streamlined Chief was departing at noon (I am speculating that this change may have occurred about the time the all-coach El Capitan was introduced in 1938 - - several railroads "paired" their all-coach trains to all-Pullman services; Union Pacific's Challenger was paired with the then all-Pullman Los Angeles Limited;  Rock Island/Southern Pacific paired the coach and tourist-sleeper Californian with the all-Pullman Golden State Limited; etc.  Santa Fe seems to have paired the all-Pullman Chief with the all-coach El Capitan.)  Just as you said, the introduction of Chair Cars to the Chief in 1954 may have created a bit of redundancy for the mid-day departures, so the Chief reverted to its late-evening departure.  Then, after 1958 when the Super/El Cap were combined, the Chief went back to mid-day again, departing first at noon, then at 11:30am for a while, and, during its final two or three years, at 10:30am.
 
One other minor clarification:  The Chief served Denver only with through cars switched out at La Junta to a connecting train that would take them up through Pueblo and Colorado Springs to Denver.  There were Los angeles-to-Denver cars, and Chicago-to Denver cars; in each direction, the Chief at La Junta would both set out and pick up the respective equipment (originally there were both through Sleepers and Chair Cars; in later years, there appears to have been only a through Sleeper).  At one time Santa Fe had operated a through Chicago-Denver train, called the Centennial State; but I believe this service had left the timecard before being streamlined or dieselized.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Sep 3rd, 2005, 3:29pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1726
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
  8-2-2_Forward.jpg - 38994 Bytes
« Reply #27 on: Sep 21st, 2005, 11:10am »
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And, the curiosities just keep on comin' . . .
 
A delightful new book, Travel by Pullman - - a Century of Service by Joe Welsh and Bill Howes ( (c)2004 by MBI Publishing, St. Paul, MN) has a fascinating photograph at the bottom of Pg. 70, showing pioneering lightweight Sleeping Car Forward in the consist of the heavyweight Super Chief, in the early months of 1937.  It is further proof of Santa Fe's early dabbling in different paint schemes for their lightweight equipment, before they settled on unpainted stainless steel.  As-delivered, Forward was painted gray, with black and gold striping above and below the windows.  The "Pullman" lettering was also gold, outlined in black pinstripe.  The 8 Sections are identified by the small upper-berth windows (one at each end of each Upper, so no matter which way your head was pointed, you could still see out).  If you were to enter the car from the vestibule, the corridor would first jog left past the Women's lavatory, then, Compartment A, Compartment B, Bedroom C, and Bedroom D (all on your right-- the "double window" on the car side in the drawing is directly opposite the entrance doors to the two Bedrooms).  The corridor regains center to pass between (in order) Sections 2, 4, 6, and 8 on your right, and Sections 1, 3, 5, and 7 on your left.  The corridor then jogs right to carry you past the Men's lavatory (the small frosted window marks the "Annex" to the Men's lavatory) before regaining center again to pass out of the car.
 
The trucks were also of an unusual design.  In addition to the large leaf spring in the center, there were coiled springs inside what look like open-sided canisters on either side of each wheel.  These trucks were soon replaced with more conventional-looking trucks (not sure what year), and the car shed its gray paint to conform to other unpainted stainless-steel equipment, I'm assuming by 1939 or so, perhaps even earlier.  
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2005, 8:14pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1726
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
  Pendulum_1100a.jpg - 27232 Bytes
« Reply #28 on: Nov 17th, 2005, 12:18am »
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In November 1941, Santa Fe took delivery of a unique, prototype "Pendulum" Chair Car from the Pacific Railway Manufacturing Company.  This car, numbered 1100, had a very slightly lower profile than other lightweight cars owned by Santa Fe, and slightly "tubular" sides with distinctive, football-shaped windows.  The most revolutionary aspect of this car, however, was its suspension system, designed to "float" the carbody above the trucks, and to dampen lateral forces around curves, thus (in theory) allowing higher speeds on conventional track without sacrificing passenger comfort or safety.  This one-of-a-kind car was briefly tested on the Chicago-Los Angeles El Capitan, but quickly found a home on the Southern California "Surf Line" as part of the San Diegan streamliner.  There were no further orders for this type of car, probably owing to less-than-hoped-for performance, together with unfortunate timing (the car was delivered only a few weeks before Pearl Harbor, and Wartime restrictions likely took effect before thorough tests and evaluations could be completed.
 
Notes:  This sketch is based on a black-and-white photograph, which appears in Robert C. Reed's The Streamline Era, and also as the front-cover illustration for Robert Wayner's Car Names, Numbers, and Consists.  Mr. Reed informs us that the car was painted two-tone grey.  In the photograph, the letterboard appears true white with black lettering, and the roof, car ends, and trucks appear to be painted aluminum silver.  The trucks are of an unusual design (the sketch does not do them justice); the most prominent difference is the absence of the large flat piece suspended between the journals-- the car seems to rest instead on truly massive coiled springs inboard of the wheels.
 
Length of service and disposition of this car are unknown to me.  Updated information is most welcome !
 
*  And, here's an update:  I have just learned that when this car was first delivered. it wore a two-tone blue paint scheme to match the Blue Goose steam locomotive.  It was repainted a few years later.  And, it also had a companion observation car.  Much more information can be seen here:
 
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/San_Diegan

 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2016, 11:14pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1726
Re: Santa Fe Trivia
 
« Reply #29 on: Jun 25th, 2016, 11:02pm »
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One For the Record Books:
 
It's been over ten years since the last update to this thread, but this seems like the logical place to put this . . .
 
Everybody knows about Santa Fe steamer No. 3460, the streamlined "Blue Goose."  She was one of a half-dozen 4-6-4s built in 1937 to power the newly-streamlined all-Pullman Chief.  Their territory was Chicago to La Junta, Colorado, where equally-brand-new 4-8-4s would take over for the run from La Junta to Los Angeles.  Both these assignments were considered very long-distance by steam locomotive standards.
 
The 3460 class were the most powerful and efficient 4-6-4s Santa Fe had purchased, up to that time. The 3460 itself was given an impressive streamlined casing, but it was un-streamlined identical sister No. 3461 that raised eyebrows and stirred conversation.  In January 1937, No. 3461 was assigned Train 8, the eastbound Fast Mail Express, and carried it all the way from Los Angeles to Chicago, without any maintenance other than five refueling stops en route.  She covered the distance in forty-nine and a half hours, an average speed of 45 miles per hour, including all stops.  Though she was assisted by Helpers over Cajon and Raton, across the plains she had no trouble cruising at 90 with her heavy Mail Train in tow.  This trip of 2,227 miles by a single steam locomotive without extra servicing is a world record that was never matched by anybody, anywhere.
 
More information can be found at:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSF_3460_class

 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2016, 11:16pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Santa Fe Trivia
 
« Reply #30 on: Jul 20th, 2017, 9:49pm »
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Thinking up-dates, memory says IRON HORSES OF THE SANTA FE TRAIL (could be some other book or magazine article) mentions that AT&SF looked at streamlining one of the 4-8-4s, but decided not to when it was discovered the extra weight on the big engine would push it into a higher pay class for the crew, so that idea was shelved. Can you imagine the Blue Goose sitting next to a 4-8-4 all matching in style and paint job? If I had the skills, I think I'd model one.

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