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 1   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Today at 2:12pm 
Response #13 By George_Harris       Thread Started By George_Harris
Vern:  True.   We have definitely veered from the original subject, however, that is the way many conversations do.  One thought leads to another until the original subject is buried in the past.  Now I will continue that  path some.
 
Norm:  Sorry, but I am going to pick at your point here:
Quote:
When I grew up and moved to the Upper Midwest (and lived through a couple of Minnesota winters), it finally dawned on me that icicles are a sign of relative warmth!  They only form when the air temperature is above 32*F (0*C), or when the sunlight is intense enough to produce a bit of melting.  On the coldest January days, when the thermometer reads twenty below zero, and the sun is hung in the sky only for ornamentation, the only icicles you will find are old ones, left over from the last "warm spell."

What you need is snow sitting on a surface that is above freezing with air temperature below freezing.  That is why you commonly see icicles off the house roof that are longer than those off an unheated garage or other such roof.  When you see icicles dripping it is either because the water running into them is flowing faster than the air can freeze all of it or the air temperature has gotten above freezing.  The reason you don't see them forming when the temperature gets well below freezing is because the cold has penetrated to the point that the underlying surface that was above freezing with warmer air temperatures can't get to being above freezing any more.  Some of my ancestors may have been from some parts of Europe where it can get that cold, but they got smart a few centuries ago and left, and I have never had any urge to live anywhere that cold, snow, and deeply frozen ground are the winter normal rather than events that occur at times during the winter.
 
Now getting sort of close to the original:  The First Street East tunnel used by passenger trains is also an extremely close clearance structure.  It is more of a problem in the curve on the south end rather than the straight portion.  When that structure was built, 85 foot long passenger cars were in the future.  I think the car length at that time was in the range of 60 to 75 feet.  Obviously the longer the car, the larger the end car and mid car offsets when going around a curve.  I would that would be intuitive to anyone that has ever driven or watched the passage of any vehicle longer than a short automobile around the corner at an intersection or small radius curve, but I have been surprised by the lack of understanding of that by some people that I thought should have known better.  Back when I was working in the WMATA yard I was told by one of the Terminal Company foremen that there were long streaks and gouges in the walls of those tunnels on the curve.    
 
I have heard that the Autotrain cars are taken through these tunnels to Ivy City for maintenance, but maybe that is just the engines.  I really don't see how they could make a superliner car fit through these tunnels.
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 2   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Guess the location 2017  Posted Today at 1:57pm 
Response #8 By darktown2       Thread Started By LVRR2095
Was wondering who that dashing feller was next to the engine.  I know the location as I was there at least one time.   The other keith
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 3   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Guess the location 2017  Posted Today at 1:52pm 
Response #7 By randy       Thread Started By LVRR2095
Well, in the foreground are two tracks with switches in them plus another in the very corner of the shot making for four tracks so it's not along the mainline so I'm torn between Newark or maybe Jersey City.  
 
The white building looks familiar so Ill go with Newark.
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 4   Regional Area Operations / Vancouver / Where and when did I take this?    Posted Today at 1:32pm 
NEW Post By Dayliner9103       View Thread with Ladysmith_1014x729.jpg - 108571 Bytes
Stumbled across this old shot probably taken in 1991. Was it the yard area at Ladysmith? If so, what happened to all that equipment?
Attached Image:  Ladysmith_1014x729.jpg - 108571 Bytes

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 5   Regional Area Operations / Vancouver / Re: Commuter Rail Announcment Tomorrow  Posted Today at 1:14pm 
Response #3 By Dayliner9103       Thread Started By Aaron Lypkie
Anything which puts trains back on even part of the E&M in a modern, sustainable way, should be supported. Once there's life on the rails again, extension will be the inevitable consequence. For too much noise has been made on this forum about what type of traffic and what type of passenger is wanted on the E&N. ANY sort will do.
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 6   Regional Area Operations / BC / Re: Photos - BC RR Action & Displays!    Posted Today at 12:44pm 
Response #1195 By emilydm       Thread Started By cn2220       View Thread with IMG_20170322_1452x.jpg - 454841 Bytes
BCOL 4612 parked at the west of of the False Creek yard yesterday afternoon, March 22, 2017. I did a double-take when I saw BC Rail livery, parked and walked back to get a picture. There can't be very many of these left out there.
Attached Image:  IMG_20170322_1452x.jpg - 454841 Bytes

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 7   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Today at 10:27am 
Response #12 By HwyHaulier       Thread Started By George_Harris
George - Norm - Lodge Members -
 
SIGH! At this point, we are hardly getting the new tunnels built. Perhaps all this obscure detail about past PRR and C&O practices  
better in "Fallen Flags" for the two lines?
 
Your writer, in his Archival Library of venerable TTs has these on point gems: PRR Form 1 dated SEP 9 1956, and C & O Folder  
dated JAN 1 1955. To the point, PRR #112 an unnamed schedule EB from Washington at 0500 HR Daily. Recall, IIRC, it carried  
thru Pullman Cars from South origins.
 
More. In the PRR folder, the schedules did protect use of (SRS - ESPEE) Crescent name. Else, schedules did not display use of  
names of ACL & SAL Florida trains...
 
Maybe these obscure items better on "Fallen Flags"?
 
.....................  Vern  ............................
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 8   Fallen Flags / NYOW / O&W #105 returns  Posted Today at 9:23am 
NEW Post By lt230s
From the pike County Dispatch:
 
http://www.pikedispatch.com/Images/NYOW.jpg
 
Society Celebrates Demise Of The NYO&W
 
MIDDLETOWN, NY — March 29, 1957 marked a sad day day in railroad history when the last revenue train made its final pass along the New York, Ontario and Western Railroad (NYO&W) route. It was not long after that the imprint that the "Old and Weary" made on the towns it passed through began to fade and gave birth to a group of people looking to keep it's spirit alive.
 
The Ontario and Western Railroad Historical Society (O&WRHS), founded in 1978, has done an impressive job of both documenting the history of the NYO&W though its many publications and sharing it with others at their monthly meetings. Rolling into the year 2017, sixty years after the demise of the O&W, the society has taken a major step forward by purchasing former the NYO&W locomotive No.105 through the help of member Norman Barrett.
 
The engine , a GE "44 Tonner" was one of the first diesels delivered to the railroad in 1940's. The 105 was last operated ten years ago as a yard switcher in southern New Jersey, and was close to being lost to history and scrapped before the O&WRHS stepped in at the 11th hour to purchase the engine last year. It has since been moved to the Steamtown National Historic Site grounds in Scranton, Pennsylvania. This 44 Tonner is one of three from the NYO&W left in existence (the other two being in Georgia and California) and despite being left outside for ten years, it remains in remarkably good condition and will be hopefully be up and running at some point in the very near future.
 
To get there, the society needs volunteers to begin working on cosmetic issues like window repairs and painting, as well as repairing one of the engines. Anyone wishing to join the adventure of volunteering to rebuild this wonderful piece of railroad history must first become a "Volunteer In Parks" (VIP) member. They can request the Volunteer Application from Norman J. Barrett at: NYOWfan@msn.com. Interested in other society events, why not join the O&WRHS! Meetings are held on the first friday of every month (except for July, August, and November) at the Mullberry Senior Center (62-70 W. Main St, Middletown, NY). For any other questions, please contact Ray Pinglora at rpinglora@nyswths.org.
 
http://www.pikedispatch.com/port.html
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 9   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Guess the location 2017  Posted Today at 9:01am 
Response #6 By LVRR2095       Thread Started By LVRR2095
on Mar 22nd, 2017, 9:52pm, gfluck1 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Hillside?

Close...but no.
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 10   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Easton & Northern Branch Info    Posted Today at 6:53am 
Response #81 By gfluck1       Thread Started By DElder       View Thread with Sinclair_Refining_Co_Bushkill_William_Walters-3.jpg - 108755 Bytes
Below is yet another undated photo of the Sinclair Refining Company (William Walters photo)
Attached Image:  Sinclair_Refining_Co_Bushkill_William_Walters-3.jpg - 108755 Bytes

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 11   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Easton & Northern Branch Info    Posted Today at 6:52am 
Response #80 By gfluck1       Thread Started By DElder       View Thread with Sinclair_Refining_Co_Bushkill_William_Walters-2.jpg - 151090 Bytes
Below is another undated photo of the Sinclair Refining Company (William Walters photo)
Attached Image:  Sinclair_Refining_Co_Bushkill_William_Walters-2.jpg - 151090 Bytes

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 12   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Easton & Northern Branch Info    Posted Today at 6:51am 
Response #79 By gfluck1       Thread Started By DElder       View Thread with Sinclair_Refining_Co_Bushkill_William_Walters-1.jpg - 42774 Bytes
Below is an undated photo of the Sinclair Refining Company (William Walters photo)
Attached Image:  Sinclair_Refining_Co_Bushkill_William_Walters-1.jpg - 42774 Bytes

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 13   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Easton & Northern Branch Info    Posted Today at 6:48am 
Response #78 By gfluck1       Thread Started By DElder       View Thread with enbb12_800x618.jpg - 71297 Bytes
Below is a 1952 detail from the "Office of the Division Engineer" which depicts trackage at the Sinclair Refining Company along Bushkill Drive.  

Attached Image:  enbb12_800x618.jpg - 71297 Bytes

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 14   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 11:16pm 
Response #11 By Norm_Anderson       Thread Started By George_Harris
on Mar 22nd, 2017, 9:39pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Remember when businesses used to advertise  that they were air conditioned?  Ceased to be any point in doing so after almost all were.  When I was a small kid, that was a major selling point in going to a movie in the summer, you would be sitting in a cool space.  

 
George, how well I remember those signs!  I grew up in SoCal, and can recall businesses downtown that had signs in the window reading Come In - - It's COLD Inside!  For added emphasis, the word "COLD" was extra-large, with icicles hanging down from the letters.  When I grew up and moved to the Upper Midwest (and lived through a couple of Minnesota winters), it finally dawned on me that icicles are a sign of relative warmth!  They only form when the air temperature is above 32*F (0*C), or when the sunlight is intense enough to produce a bit of melting.  On the coldest January days, when the thermometer reads twenty below zero, and the sun is hung in the sky only for ornamentation, the only icicles you will find are old ones, left over from the last "warm spell."
 
Those signs were clearly the work of a Californian or a Floridian.
 
 
(By the way, if F.F.V. does not stand for First Families of Virginia, your reasoning about the Fast Flying Vestibuled makes a lot more sense than Fast Flying Virginian, which sounds like a nickname, rather than a name the railroad itself would choose.  Railroads were always keen to advertise their newest innovations (from vestibules to electric lighting to all-steel construction to air conditioning to streamlining to radio music in the lounge car).  But I can also see Vern's point about First Families and "George Washington's Railroad."
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
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 15   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Guess the location 2017  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 9:52pm 
Response #5 By gfluck1       Thread Started By LVRR2095
Hillside?
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 16   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 9:39pm 
Response #10 By George_Harris       Thread Started By George_Harris
on Mar 22nd, 2017, 3:56pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Eastbound PRR #112? IIRC, it was an earlier hour dept. from DC. Something of a "catch all" which carried all East Cars  
coming up from the South. That is: C & O, SRS, ACL, SAL. Perhaps RF&P, too, but the latter is a stretch...
 
Define "FFV". Who knows? Your writer favors "First Families Of Virginia". It always George Washington's railroad!...
 
......................  Vern  ...........................

Vern:  
Anything that was to/from ACL & SAL would have traveled to DC via RF&P.
I once heard that originally the FFV was "Fast Flying Vestibuled" with that going back to when there were still  many open platform cars in trains.  True or not, I have no idea.  (Remember when businesses used to advertise  that they were air conditioned?  Ceased to be any point in doing so after almost all were.  When I was a small kid, that was a major selling point in going to a movie in the summer, you would be sitting in a cool space.  When I say stuff like this my kid that lives near me asks what it was like to have a pet dinosaur.)  
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 17   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Guess the location 2017  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:41pm 
Response #4 By LVRR2095       Thread Started By LVRR2095
on Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:35pm, gfluck1 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Riddle me this, the concrete structure in the background, is it roadway?

Yes....
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 18   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Guess the location 2017  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:35pm 
Response #3 By gfluck1       Thread Started By LVRR2095
Riddle me this, the concrete structure in the background, is it roadway?
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 19   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Guess the location 2017  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:27pm 
Response #2 By LVRR2095       Thread Started By LVRR2095
on Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:14pm, gfluck1 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Jersey, somewhere?

Yes.....but I was hoping for something just a little more specific!
Keith
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 20   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Guess the location 2017  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:14pm 
Response #1 By gfluck1       Thread Started By LVRR2095
Jersey, somewhere?
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 21   Fallen Flags / DH / Re: The final D&H roster  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:09pm 
Response #2 By towny72       Thread Started By Matthew_L
Amazing list...
 
 
Thanks!
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 22   Fallen Flags / DH / Re: The final D&H roster  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 6:02pm 
Response #1 By NEFAN       Thread Started By Matthew_L
Surprising that any of the RS3 model still was active at that time.
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 23   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 3:56pm 
Response #9 By HwyHaulier       Thread Started By George_Harris
Norm - George - Lodge Members -
 
WOW! The published TTs don't lie! Yes, that's the way it happened. C & O - PRR interchanged thru cars at Washington.  
The practice should be documented in histories of PULLMAN...
 
Date here is fascinating. In the era, B & O ended its Washington - Jersey City services (ca. 1958?). In any case, your writer  
at Mount Royal (BAL) Station later in the evening. Its train arriving from Jersey City carried a C & O Sleeper! Never have  
figured why that was so. Also at the time, B & O had agreements with MOPAC, with Cars handled in the EAGLE System!
 
Eastbound PRR #112? IIRC, it was an earlier hour dept. from DC. Something of a "catch all" which carried all East Cars  
coming up from the South. That is: C & O, SRS, ACL, SAL. Perhaps RF&P, too, but the latter is a stretch...
 
Define "FFV". Who knows? Your writer favors "First Families Of Virginia". It always George Washington's railroad!...
 
......................  Vern  ...........................
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 24   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 3:17pm 
Response #8 By Norm_Anderson       Thread Started By George_Harris
on Mar 21st, 2017, 2:32pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Did the C&O ever run trains through north of DC?

 
George and Vern,
 
I can't comment on "ever," but I do have timetables from 1956 that show the following:
 
C&O advertised through service to New York on three trains:  The George Washington, the Sportsman, and the F.F.V..  But these were apparently through Sleepers and Chair Cars only, handled on Pennsy trains between New York and DC.
 
The George Washington:  
 
Westbound Train 1 received cars from Train 129, the Potomac.  
Eastbound Train 2 delivered cars to Train 174, the Federal.
 
The Sportsman:
 
Westbound Train 5 received cars from Train 111, the President.
Eastbound Train 4 delivered cars to Train 152, the Afternoon Congressional.
 
The F.F.V.:
 
Westbound Train 3 received cars from Train 137, the Mount Vernon.
Eastbound Train 6 delivered cars to Train 112 (which may not have been named, but which carried a Dining Car, and also carried through cars from Florida Service trains).
 
By the way, can anyone offer a difinitive answer to whether the name F.F.V. referred to Fast Flying Virginian, or First Families of Virginia?  I have heard both explanations offered . . .
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
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 25   Fallen Flags / LV / Guess the location 2017    Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 2:54pm 
NEW Post By LVRR2095       View Thread with LV_Engineer_K_Taylor_with_LV_221_EMD_SW7.jpg - 126192 Bytes
Here's a test to start off 2017.
I will give you a hint, that is me standing next to SW-7 221 in March of 1975. Back when I was a LOT thinner and had a lot more hair.
Now...where was this taken?
 Photo by Fred Wilczewski
Keith Taylor
Attached Image:  LV_Engineer_K_Taylor_with_LV_221_EMD_SW7.jpg - 126192 Bytes

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 26   Fallen Flags / PRR / Fastest Pennsy Steam Locomotive?  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 12:19pm 
NEW Post By PennsyFan2017
I've been curious as to which of the many steam locos that ran on the Pennsy was the fast one. Here are some contenders that I can recall as being "fast". Feel free to correct me.
 
T1 (4-4-4-4) At least 100 mph
S1 #6100 (6-4-4-6) ~100 mph
K4 (4-6-2) ?
E7 #7002 (4-4-2) claimed to reach 127.1 mph
S2 #6200 (6-8-6) at least 100 mph
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 27   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 12:04pm 
Response #7 By HwyHaulier       Thread Started By George_Harris
George - Lodge Members -
 
Just above, you have a "BTW" remark about C & O. See this "Wiki" link which tries to help...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_and_Ohio_Railway
 
Yes, yes, your writer recalls from the era that C & O power seen holding at Ivy City (DC). For dates of  
passenger services? This one better aided with a C & O scholar?
 
It is plausible there may have been C & O operating "joint line" with either B & O or PENN. Otherwise,  
perhaps thru Pullman schedules between NJ/NY and interchange at WUT DC? A rationale why C & O  
may have done it that way? Its activity at White Sulphur Springs an important on line point?
 
Misc Point here? It is difficult to even imagine C & O power, North (TT East) above DC running either  
B & O or PENN. On both of the Carriers, power set up with signaling systems, purpose built for the  
respective lines. Yes, one exception comes to mind. One time severe snow storm which shut down the  
PENN GG-1 types. With it, several "Southern Line" power (SRS, C&O (?), ACL, SAL, RF&P) ran thru  
to NY (PRR 34th St.)...
 
This one clearly "incidental knowledge. It doesn't get the new tunnels built! <G>
 
.....................  Vern  .....................
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 28   Fallen Flags / ATSF / Re: SF's passenger equipment, post-AMTRAK  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 11:58am 
Response #5 By E8M 86 A-B       Thread Started By E8M 86 A-B
on Mar 22nd, 2017, 11:33am, Norm_Anderson wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
I will heartily second that sentiment!  Although, I have to say that Amtrak's Dining Car service has improved over the years.  Still not up to Fred Harvey's standards, but it has progressed from "tolerable" to "pretty good, actually."
 
What I truly miss is the level of service that used to characterize passenger train travel.  It used to be so much more than just "accommodation."  The railroads (the good ones, anyway), tried to actually impress their patrons-- and not in an unctious, smarmy way, but with genuine respect.
 
But that's not Amtrak's fault, really.  That's a cultural shift, and we are the worse for it.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm

 
 
Norm:
 
Agree 100% with your views!
 
Through the 1960's, The Erie-Lackawanna was known for carrying on the fine dining experience on its trains that had been standard since the old DL&W days; right up until the end of through service out of Hoboken in 1970, the railroad's tasty cuisine and fine dining experiences would have still delighted the lovely, legendary "Miss Phoebe Snow"!
 
In Steve Glischinsky's fine book on the SF, "SANTA FE RAILWAY", there is an excellent two-page "mini chapter" that's entitled "FRED HARVEY AND THE SANTA FE"......clearly, no one ever went hungry when traveling the Santa Fe way!
 
Ahhhh, me lads, t'was indeed the stuff of legends.....
 
E8M
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 29   Fallen Flags / ATSF / Re: SF's passenger equipment, post-AMTRAK  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 11:33am 
Response #4 By Norm_Anderson       Thread Started By E8M 86 A-B
on Mar 22nd, 2017, 11:21am, E8M 86 A-B wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Now...if only the Fred Harvey Dining Service was still with us....ahh, well, I guess you can't have everything......

 
I will heartily second that sentiment!  Although, I have to say that Amtrak's Dining Car service has improved over the years.  Still not up to Fred Harvey's standards, but it has progressed from "tolerable" to "pretty good, actually."
 
What I truly miss is the level of service that used to characterize passenger train travel.  It used to be so much more than just "accommodation."  The railroads (the good ones, anyway), tried to actually impress their patrons-- and not in an unctious, smarmy way, but with genuine respect.
 
But that's not Amtrak's fault, really.  That's a cultural shift, and we are the worse for it.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
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 30   Fallen Flags / ATSF / Re: SF's passenger equipment, post-AMTRAK  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 11:21am 
Response #3 By E8M 86 A-B       Thread Started By E8M 86 A-B
Norm:
 
Once again, greatly appreciate both your input and your time.....quite a nice start to my day, to learn that at least a few ex-SF cars are still in AMTRAK service....it proves that high quality lasts, and never goes out of style!
 
I have also seen photos of early-AMTRAK era trains (on the NEC) carrying ex-NP cars.
 
That the SF never let their passenger equipment grow shabby and raffish indeed would have made them look all the more attractive to AMTRAK.
 
Now...if only the Fred Harvey Dining Service was still with us....ahh, well, I guess you can't have everything......
 
E8M
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 31   Fallen Flags / ATSF / Re: SF's passenger equipment, post-AMTRAK  Posted Mar 22nd, 2017, 10:57am 
Response #2 By Norm_Anderson       Thread Started By E8M 86 A-B
E8M,
 
I confess to being out of my depth here.  I can share musings (much of which may well be repeating back things that you already know).
 
I believe that the majority of equipment retained by Amtrak came from four railroads-- New York Central, Burlington, Santa Fe, and Union Pacific.  In 1971, Amtrak technically inherited all the passenger equipment from participating railroads, but it was a boast of theirs that they only kept one-third of the cars they were offered, because they were the only ones up to Amtrak's standards.
 
For all I know, there may still be a few ex-Santa Fe Sleepers and Diners among the "Heritage Fleet" (unless they've all been replaced by Viewliners by now).  If Amtrak retained the names on the sides of their Sleepers, the Santa Fe cars would be 10-Roomette, 6-Double-Bedroom cars in the Palm _______ or Pine _______ series.  (Ex-Burlington cars would be in the Silver _______ series, and ex-UP cars would be in the Pacific _______ series.)
 
The Hi-Level Chair Cars were in the best shape, and they were used even into the Superliner era.  (Some of them were only seven years old on A-Day!)  As the Superliners took over, the Hi-Level Chair Cars were converted into Chair/Dormitory cars, operated between the single-level Baggage Cars and the Superliners.  You can distinguish them in photographs by the narrowed windows in the forward half of the car (those were the Dormitory rooms).  The rear half of the car was retained as "overflow" Chair Car seating.  I do not believe any of them are still in use.
 
However, there are five ex-Santa Fe cars that are still in Amtrak service to this day.  They are five of the original six Hi-Level Lounge Cars from the El Capitan, that are serving as the First-Class-only  "Pacific Parlour Cars" on the Coast Starlight between Los Angeles and Seattle.  They were delivered to Santa Fe in the summer of 1956, so they will be 62 years old this Summer!  (For perspective, in 1956, a 62-year-old passenger car would have been built in 1894, and would have been made of wood . . .)  But they are still holding up just fine.
 
As you noted, a few of the original 1937 Super Chief cars are also still with us, in private hands.  Observation Lounge Car Navajo is in the care of the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden (outside Denver); Dining Car Cochiti is at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, where it is used to display vintage Dining Car china; and I believe Lounge Car Acoma was recently put up for sale-- the previous owners were fairly careful to maintain its original decor.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
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 32   Fallen Flags / ATSF / Re: SF's passenger equipment, post-AMTRAK  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 11:26pm 
Response #1 By E8M 86 A-B       Thread Started By E8M 86 A-B
All:
 
Must also make mention of Amtrak's "Superliners", which clearly owe thier distinctive design to the SF's stylish and sleek "Hi-Levels"....I guess that imitation is INDEED the SINCEREST form of flattery, after all.....
 
E8M
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 33   Fallen Flags / ATSF / Re: Wheel Cnfigurations For Steam Hauling Freight and/or Livestock  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 11:04pm 
Response #2 By Jerald_Mniller       Thread Started By Jerald_Mniller
Norm~
Thank you again for providing me just what I'm looking for! You are amazing!
You sure make pursuit of knowledge enjoyable!
Thanks again!
~Jerald
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 34   Fallen Flags / ATSF / SF's passenger equipment, post-AMTRAK  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 10:26pm 
NEW Post By E8M 86 A-B
Gentlemen:
 
I know that AMTRAK purchased 400 ex-SF passenger cars, a number of which were still in service as of 1997 ( I would imagine all of these these cars have been since retired from revenue service)
 
 When did AMTRAK retire the last of its "Heritage" cars that were originally owned by the SF? (baggage/coaches/diners/sleepers)
 
I also know that the diner "COCHITI"  has been restored, as well as the observation car "NAVAJO"; both of these cars were part of the 1937 "SUPER CHIEF" (according to Steve Glischinsky's  "SANTA FE RAILWAY")
 
I am also guessing that a number of cars were sadly scrapped over the ensuing years; perhaps others might have been converted into MOW cars after being retired.........
 
Regards,
 
E8M
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 35   Fallen Flags / ATSF / Re: Wheel Cnfigurations For Steam Hauling Freight and/or Livestock  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 9:31pm 
Response #1 By Norm_Anderson       Thread Started By Jerald_Mniller
Hi again, Jerald,
 
The answer may depend on what time period you wish to model.  But as a general rule, freight locomotives had a single leading axle, while passenger locomotives had two leading axles for greater stability around curves at higher speeds.
 
In the early 20th Century, passenger trains were often pulled by 4-6-0 "Ten-Wheeler" locomotives, while freight trains were handled by 2-8-0 "Consolidation" types.
 
In the 1920s and early 1930s, passenger trains in the Midwest were most commonly pulled by 4-6-2 "Pacific" types, while freights were handled by 2-6-2 "Prairie" types.  In the West, where more power was needed for mountain grades, passenger trains were assigned 4-8-2 "Mountain" types, and freights were pulled by 2-8-2 "Mikado" types.
 
In the late 1930s and into the 1940s, passenger trains were assigned 4-6-4 "Husdson" types in the Midwest and 4-8-4 "Northern" types in the West, while freights were handled by 2-10-2 "Santa Fe" types.  The most massive freight steam locomotives were the 2-10-4 "Texas" types.  (Santa Fe also experimented with articulated "Mallet" locomotives, but they were never commonplace.)
 
Based on the title of your post, am I correct in assuming you might want to model the late 1940s, with hotshot livestock trains and Green Fruit Extras (solid blocks of reefers)?  If so, then the 2-10-2 is the locomotive of choice.  Just the right blend of fast and powerful.  They got the job done.  Over steep grades like Cajon Pass, they would often couple two of them on the head end, with a third cut in just ahead of the caboose.  They'd climb through the Pass like artillery on wheels.
 
Evan Werkema has compiled an impressive roster of Santa Fe steam power, which will give greater detail to this thumbnail summary.  His list is arranged by locomotive type, and gives number of units built, in what year, Santa Fe road numbers, and year retired.  I think you will find it helpful.
 
http://atsf.railfan.net/atsfstea.html

 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
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 36   Fallen Flags / DH / The final D&H roster  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 8:12pm 
NEW Post By Matthew_L
Our fellow rf.net member Scottychaos has created a roster of the D&H as it existed on 1/3/1984:
 
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/DH/DH-Roster-1984.html
 
The date was the final day of operations before Guilford took over.  
 
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 37   Regionals and Short Lines / WNYP / Portageville Bridge Update  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 4:25pm 
NEW Post By roc
Portageville Rail Bridge project reaches a milestone
 
Steel construction has begun on the main arch span of the Portageville Rail Bridge that crosses the Genesee River in Letchworth State Park in Portageville, NY.
 
[more]
 
Anyone with pics, Chris?
 
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/mow/news/Portageville-Rail-Bridge-project-reaches-a-milestone--51124
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 38   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 2:32pm 
Response #6 By George_Harris       Thread Started By George_Harris
on Mar 21st, 2017, 8:37am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
George - Henry - Lodge Members -
 
What we have here something of a classic DC Boondoggle? From appearances, CSX has only so much funding to throw at this. In the long history, this should not be a CSX problem? Used to be, PENNA RR ran a freight and passenger "cutoff" between a point at/near Seabrook, MD and Potomac Yards, VA. It was under "wire", yes?

 
I was working in DC on WMATA, 1972-1978 first for the contractor in what became the Major Repair Yard and the Wash Term Co East Coach Yard, later on the design side for track, so I have a little first hand familiarity.  We were right next to the passenger lines into Washington Union Station from the north.  The ex Pennsy lines were electrified (obviously) and the B&O lines were not.  South of the New York Avenue overpass all the Washington station approach tracks were electrified except for the westernmost, which were B&O only. WUT tracks 1 through 6 or 7 were taken out along with the easternmost three throat tracks, all sold to WMATA, along with much of the WUT coach yard.  Remember at that time the thought was that railroad passenger service outside the corridor was in a death spiral ending shortly with none.  
 
Back to the topic at hand:  These tracks were passenger only.  The split point was, if I recall correctly, Landover Tower, with all freight diverging to the east.  The freight lines continued on the Anacostia side of the Anacostia River, bridging it about 1/2 mile north of the crossing of the same by Pennsylvania Avenue SE. After crossing it they continued on the DC side curving into paralleling Virginia Avenue SE and the Virginia Ave tunnel.  Coming out of the tunnel they continued paralleling Virginia Ave in a more or less WNW orientation, meeting the passenger line at Virginia Avenue Tower, which was located at about 2nd or 3rd Street SW.  From this point they ran together to the crossing of the Patomac River.  The passenger line to the south out of Washington Union Station ran in a tunnel under 1st Street NE and SE, coming out and curving to join the freight line at Virginia Tower.  This tunnel and line south thereof was not electrified.  There was electrification for a short length at the north end just at the station so that for through trains the Pennsy engines could be cut off and the Southern, RF&P, or C&O diesels attached.  (Did the C&O ever run trains through north of DC?)  The freight line was electrified throughout.  South of Virginia Tower all tracks were electrified to the divergence of the freight tracks from the mains to enter Patomac Yard.  The tracks from the New York Avenue overpass north of Union Station to the Virginia Avenue tower connection with the freight line were owned by the Washington Terminal Company.  North of New York Avenue the through tracks were owned by either the Pennsy or the B&O, as appropriate, with the Terminal company owning the yards between.  The freight line was owned by the Pennsy throughout to the south end of the Patomac River Bridge.  Thus, the RF&P did not own any tracks outside of Virginia.  (The state line between the District of Columbia, along with Maryland and Virginia is at the south bank, I think the low water mark, but am not sure, not at the stream flowline which is the normal when watercourses are defined as state lines.)  I believe that for the part south of the bridge used by the Pennsy, including the tracks in Patomac yard that were electrified, the Pennsy owned the catenary and all else appertaining to the electrification with the RF&P owning everything else.
 
Quote:
SOUTHERN RR and possibility of running under wires? The line long tempted by the cheaper TVA power. The line must not have trusted that, so there are no electrics on the CNO&TP line?  
 
...........  Vern  .................

I was following railroad stuff at the time this idea came up. It was TVA on one side with Southern's CNO&TP and the L&N's Cincinatti to Atlanta line on the other side.   I don't remember who first approached who,  but the concept was that TVA would own everything electrical down to, or maybe it was even including the catenary and supports with all else being owned by TVA who wold be selling the power in the similar manner to that was done with cooperatives and town systems.  It seems that there was great enthusiasm by both railroads, but neither wanted to be first.  The preference of each was that the other be the guinea pig.  After being discussed with great enthusiasm by all parties for some time it faded away into thundering silence with nothing said about what killed it.  
 
There were a few little points that i remember from the discussions and news about it.  One was that if you had a paralleling barb wire fence at the right of way line with the wires reasonably well insulated, and dry wood posts provided sufficient insulation, that a 25kV 60hz overhead could induce over 100 volts in the wire which is sufficient to kill a cow.
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 39   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 1:27pm 
Response #5 By George_Harris       Thread Started By George_Harris
on Mar 21st, 2017, 2:54am, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Was that when they daylighted some of the rathole tunnels?

Yes.  In fact, enlarged or daylighted all of them.  As part of this, there were several line relocations.  I think a couple of new tunnels were built that bypassed older tunnels on better alignments.
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 40   Regional Area Operations / BC / Re: Marpole Spur question    Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 1:22pm 
Response #89 By davidjsc       Thread Started By vicguy       View Thread with marpole_spur_01.jpg - 112951 Bytes
Driving near the Marpole Spur this past Sunday (March 19, 2017) and noticed they're doing some track replacement along the spur between Byrne Road and Glenlyon Parkway. Some of the old rails replaced out and ballasting, etc. Near the Bryne Road crossing, I spotted this equipment parked for the day and managed to snap a photo.
Attached Image:  marpole_spur_01.jpg - 112951 Bytes

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 41   Fallen Flags / NYCS / Re: NYC artifacts and survivors  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 11:14am 
Response #8 By PennsyFan2017       Thread Started By Matthew_L
Let us not forget the 0-6-0 #6721 that was damaged by a runaway hopper in the summer of 2015 in Utica, NY. I'm not sure as to whether or not it has been repaired.
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 42   Fallen Flags / ATSF / Wheel Cnfigurations For Steam Hauling Freight and/or Livestock  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 11:07am 
NEW Post By Jerald_Mniller
As a Newbie here I first want to thank everyone, especially Norm, for the vast amount of knowledge I have gained about the ATSF!. At 76 years of age I am trying to learn, and model, as much as possible while I still have time. I've learned that the 4-8-4's pulled the heavyweight passenger cars, but cannot find what Steam wheel configurations and locomotive size were used to pull freight and/or livestock. I tried to locate Larry Brasher's  (first volume) book entitled "Santa Fe Locomotive Development" without having to re-mortgage the house, to no avail!.
Can anyone help?.
Thanks again everyone!
~Jerald
 
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 43   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 8:37am 
Response #4 By HwyHaulier       Thread Started By George_Harris
George - Henry - Lodge Members -
 
What we have here something of a classic DC Boondoggle? From appearances, CSX has only so much funding to throw at this.  
In the long history, this should not be a CSX problem? Used to be, PENNA RR ran a freight and passenger "cutoff" between a  
point at/near Seabrook, MD and Potomac Yards, VA. It was under "wire", yes?
 
This current project is just a mess?
 
SOUTHERN RR and possibility of running under wires? The line long tempted by the cheaper TVA power. The line must not have  
trusted that, so there are no electrics on the CNO&TP line?
 
...........  Vern  .................
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 44   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 2:54am 
Response #3 By Henry       Thread Started By George_Harris
Was that when they daylighted some of the rathole tunnels?
 
It seems pretty short-sighted to go only to 21'.
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 45   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 1:45am 
Response #2 By George_Harris       Thread Started By George_Harris
on Mar 21st, 2017, 1:17am, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)
The article says says "The new 4,100-foot-long, 21-foot-tall tunnels" so is that enough for catenary? CSX' "Doublestack 3" clearance is 20' 2" so I am guessing it isn't high enough. Maybe they can undercut enough if necessary.

NO!!!!  Saw the article but just glanced through it.  I can't believe they did that.
This distance is less than AREMA recommended requirements, which is 23'-0", see the American Railway Engineering and Maintenance Association Manual, Chapter 28, Clearances.  If electrification is anticipated, the amount should be no less than 24'-3" if the power is to be 25kv or less.
 
 Back in the 1960's when clearances became a problem for piggyback, Southern went on a massive tunnel clearance project.  In that time frame they made some major alignment improvements on the CNO&TP.  As part of that the tunnels built/enlarged were to an overhead clearance of 30 feet.  The comment made, we want to never have to do this (clearance improvement) work again.  Though not stated in anything I read, it appears that allowance for electrification was part of that.
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 46   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Re: Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 1:17am 
Response #1 By Henry       Thread Started By George_Harris
The article says says "The new 4,100-foot-long, 21-foot-tall tunnels" so is that enough for catenary? CSX' "Doublestack 3" clearance is 20' 2" so I am guessing it isn't high enough. Maybe they can undercut enough if necessary.
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 47   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Allentown branchlines  Posted Mar 21st, 2017, 12:34am 
Response #714 By barnabascollins       Thread Started By A-townbranchfan
I was curious if any one had any clue (no relation to the game) as to what happened to the switcher that was at the fuller company.
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 48   Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals / Infrastructure / Virginia Avenue Tunnel - Dist of Columbia, CSX, ex Pennsy  Posted Mar 20th, 2017, 9:41pm 
NEW Post By George_Harris
Thought we had a thread on this project.  For those who don't know, this is replacement of the tunnel on the Washington Union Station freight bypass.  
 
I will add more later, but here is the latest update from Progressive Railroading
 
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/csx_transportation/article/Project-update-CSXs-Virginia-Avenue-Tunnel--51027?source=pr_digital03/20/2017&email=emailAddress
 
I hope they have been smart enough to provide clearance for electrification should it ever be reinstalled.
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 49   Regional Area Operations / Vancouver / Re: E&N (SRY-VI) Movement Reports: 2017  Posted Mar 20th, 2017, 6:21pm 
Response #35 By Goose5       Thread Started By CPRail4744
Light engines in both directions.
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 50   Fallen Flags / LV / Re: Allentown branchlines  Posted Mar 19th, 2017, 3:55pm 
Response #713 By henryS       Thread Started By A-townbranchfan
LV 230 is a Baldwin S12, not an Alco.
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