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Pullmans to Mexico
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   Author  Topic: Pullmans to Mexico  (Read 1065 times)
Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #40 on: Jan 25th, 2017, 3:44am »
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Hi Norm,
that link you gave me (arkansasrailroadhistory) is exactly the source where I have my consist information from. Itīs actually the only info that I have about this train except for a picture of a baggage tag of that train, showing the logos of MP, T&P and NdeM as well as the sun pyramid of Teotihuacan. All I still need are some photos of that train. Although I know that it used typcial standard heavyweight equipment, I would still like to see some photos of that train. This is why the passenger car photo indes isnīt really helpful in this case because I wanna see a photo from the time when that train operated (1937-1940). A couple of photos of the whole train would be great.
The Pullman sleepers it carried were all standard / common types, and most of them are available in HO scale (Walthers and Branchline). Only the 13 section sleeper isnīt available, but I would simply use a 14 section sleeper instead as a compromise. Another good thing is, that the heavyweight diner and baggage by Walthers are based on MP prototypes which makes them just perfectly suitable for this train I guess. And yes, I know that all the sleepers were lettered "Pullman" and that only the baggage, diner and observation would be lettered for the participating roads. So I decided to model a City of Mexico with Walthers and Branchline heavyweight cars that looks exactly like this:
1. Walthers Baggage NdeM
2. Branchline 14 Section Sleeper Pullman (prototype: 13 sections!)
3. Branchline 12-1 Sleeper Pullman
4. Branchline 12-1 Sleeper Pullman
5. Branchline 12-1 Sleeper Pullman
6. Walthers Diner MP
7. Branchline 8-1-2 Sleeper Pullman
8. Branchline 8-1-2 Sleeper Pullman
9. Branchline 6-3 Sleeper Pullman
10. Walthers Solarium Observation T&P (prototype: buffet lounge observation!)
As you can see, it would feature a NdeM baggage, a MP diner and T&P observation. Iīm pretty sure all cars would be painted dark green / Pullman green. For the T&P observations and MP diners, I also have the correct numbers. But a correct number of a NdeM baggage is still unknown to me. At least for that era. Also I would like to know, if NdeM heavyweight cars already featured that orange stripe below the windows in the late 30s, or if this feature came up only after the war. What I also would like to know of course are the names of the Pullman sleepers that were used on the City of Mexico. I guess most names had spanish or aztec / native american names, but Iīm not sure yet as I donīt have any info at all about it.
What I find very interesting about this operation is that it was handled twice by MP and that MP didnīt run it on their own tracks all the way through but handled it over to the T&P between Texarkana and Longview.  
For now, I would have my City of Mexico being pulled by my T&P I-1a 2-10-4, what means that I would model the T&P portion of it. I also thought about modeling the whole run, which would mean I would need to use a MP 4-6-2 for the St. Louis-Texarkana leg, the T&P 2-10-4 for the Texarkana-Longview leg, a MP 4-8-2 for the Longview-Laredo leg and a NdeM 4-6-2 for the Laredo-Mexico City leg (that will be expensive especially since these MP steamers are only avaiable in brass so far!). I could also imagine very well that even though this train probably never operated with consist longer than 10 cars, it might have had been doubleheaded with NdeM Pacifics for the climb up the Sierra Madre Oriental southwest of Monterrey. During that time NdeM also owned 4-6-4īs, 4-8-0īs and 2-6-6-2īs, so maybe even some of these types might have pulled or at least helped this train.
To Jerry: yes, the usage of the word "Solarium" might not be appropriate for every enclosed heavyweight observation car. But T&P as well as MP used enclosed heavyweight observation cars starting in 1927, which featured a so called "sun room" at the rear end. So sun room ----> solarium! Although Iīm pretty sure these sun rooms werenīt used for tanning back in those days!
Btw: I contacted the people at mopac.org for more infos and photos about this train, but they couldnīt help me and told me to register on the forum there (which isnīt visible for non-members) and ask there, but unfortunately nobody has ever answered.


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jmlaboda
Historian
Posts: 389
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #41 on: Jan 25th, 2017, 4:02am »
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Quote:
2. Branchline 14 Section Sleeper Pullman (prototype: 13 sections!)

 
I am not sure you are correct about this car being a 14 Section labeled as 13 Section.  The only "13" Section sleepers ever operated by Pullman were 12 Section - 1 Drawing Room cars that were reassigned to Tourist Car service, with the Drawing Room being labeled as the 13th Section.  I suspect that this is indeed what you have here.
 
Something to keep in mind about such cars... they did not have air conditioning (though some cars did retain air ducts on the roof left over from their earlier "named" car status... underbody equipment removed).
 
There recently was a file posted to the Passenger Car List Yahoo! Groups list that dealt with Pullman car assignments.  Let me see if I can find it and see if there is any listing about cars being used in Mexico City service... this may help to identify the Pullmans that were involved.


« Last Edit: Jan 25th, 2017, 4:05am by jmlaboda » Logged

jerry
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Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #42 on: Jan 25th, 2017, 2:16pm »
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To jmlaboda:
Thatīs a very interesting thing you say. But why should a 12-1 sleeper be called 13 section sleeper when the drawing room is still there? Why should a drawing room be labeled as 13th section just because the car is assigned to Tourist Car service but not rebuilt inside?
On the arkansasrailroadhistory page this car is described as "13 sec Tourist (N.A.C.) M-601". Iīm not familiar with these abbreviations and numbers, but could N.A.C. stand for "non air conditioned"? Also the 601 number of that 13 section sleeper differs from the other 12-1 sleepers listed there who all appear to be from a "500 series".
Anyway itīs weird why that Tourist Car would not have air conditioning while the rest of the train had. MP/T&P were pioneers when it comes to air conditioning because in 1933 the Sunshine Special became the first train west of the Mississippi to be air conditioned, so it would be logical to assume that the even more exclusive City of Mexico was thoroughly air conditioned as well (except for the baggage car).
To be honest I donīt even know if this train featured a baggage car or a baggage dormitory car on the headend (Iīm pretty sure though that it never featured a RPO because it operated on a weekly basis). Would be interesting to know. I only know that the train staff was required to speak english and spanish fluently, but that doesnīt clarify if the staff rode all the way through and therefore would have needed to sleep in a baggage dormitory car for example or if there was a crew-change between MP/T&P and NdeM staff at the border.
Back to the 13 section Tourist Car: If this car didnīt have air conditioning ducts, I could use a Rivarossi 12-1 sleeper for it because the Rivarossi 12-1 sleepers were produced without these ducts (from pre air conditioning days). But since Rivarossi heavyweights are way less detailed than the Branchline and Walthers heavyweights, I would prefer to use a Branchline 12-1 sleeper despite having these ducts simply because I want all cars of this train to have the same general style and level of detail.
Oh yes, thank you in advance already! It would be really nice if you could find out the car names of those Pullmans that were involved in the City of Mexico. So I could custom produce decals with the correct names (as well as numbers for the MP, T&P and NdeM cars).


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jmlaboda
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Posts: 389
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #43 on: Jan 26th, 2017, 7:13am »
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Quote:
But why should a 12-1 sleeper be called 13 section sleeper when the drawing room is still there? Why should a drawing room be labeled as 13th section just because the car is assigned to Tourist Car service but not rebuilt inside?

 
That is how they classified the Drawing Room... don't know why but it was just the way they dealt with DRs on tourist cars (the same was also true of cars that had Compartments).  Part of it may have been by the price to simplify things for station clerks...
 
Quote:
On the arkansasrailroadhistory page this car is described as "13 sec Tourist (N.A.C.) M-601". I not familiar with these abbreviations and numbers, but could N.A.C. stand for "non air conditioned"? Also the 601 number of that 13 section sleeper differs from the other 12-1 sleepers listed there who all appear to be from a "500 series".

 
Not sure what the story on NAC nor the numbers mean but it could be that NAC is indeed "not AC".  The numbers may be the assigned number for the specific car for that particular train but without knowing more about what Pullman did in that regard it really is hard to say...
 
Quote:
Anyway it weird why that Tourist Car would not have air conditioning while the rest of the train had. MP/T&P were pioneers when it comes to air conditioning because in 1933 the Sunshine Special became the first train west of the Mississippi to be air conditioned, so it would be logical to assume that the even more exclusive City of Mexico was thoroughl y air conditioned as well (except for the baggage car).

 
Not really.  Being the cheapest seats on the train one has to expect something less than red carpet treatment.  Pullman chose not to keep AC on the cars that previously had it because it was cheaper to maintain a given car compared to repairs needed when the AC wasn't working... when you are trying to cut costs as far as tickets go you have to find any way you can to cut ticket costs so a profit can be made.  Same thing nearly ever company in the U.S. handles the need to keep costs down... you would be hard pressed to find a company that didn't.
 
Staffing of the train largely would involve train crews and Pullman staff with the train crews changing when the interchange was made and at specific points along the route.  The Pullman staff, on the other hand, would have likely stayed with the train to and from end points and could be staff from either the U.S. or Mexico (likely had a bit of both) as long as they were qualified.  The Pullman staff would have been accommodated in any of the sleepers that had Sections since dorm space was a bit of a rarity until later on (very few heavyweight dorm cars were ever used, and then it was later on as cars were freed up from specific assignments).
 
I think its fair to believe that the train operated with a baggage car since passengers more time than not have more luggage than they can comfortably situate in their specific accommodations, especially so in Sections... the baggage could have been from any of the partners involved in the operation and may even involve cars from other roads as well given how Railway Express Agency kept things moved around.  Hopefully it will yet be possible to find out what Pullmans were used regularly but it may be that any of the cars known to have gone to Nacionales de Mexico would be a good place to start.  Some of those names can be found on the Nacionales de Mexico pages of the Passenger Car Photo Index, link to that page is below...
 
http://passcarphotos.info/Indices/NdeM1.htm


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jerry
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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3433
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #44 on: Jan 26th, 2017, 8:19am »
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Jerry - Lodge Members -  
 
Concur with your detailed rationale. That being, the "13 S, NAC" designator very much appears to have been the "crew car".  
So to infer any of the berth spaces not for booking by the general traveling public. The single "DR" possibly served as an office?
 
The "Official Register" of the time possibly reported the particular car(s) subject an explanatory note. In print, possibly shown  
as "12S, DR, NAC" with note it considered as "13 S, NAC"?
 
................. Vern .........................


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Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #45 on: Jan 27th, 2017, 1:46pm »
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Hi Vern,
do you believe the crew was so numerous that it would require a whole sleeper to use as crew car? I guess that would be very unusual, wouldnīt it? Anyway, if that is indeed the case, it would be maybe a proof that crews didnīt change at the border but stayed on the train all the way through. So this crew car could serve as their "living place" during the one-week-round-trip to and from Mexico City.
 
Any infos anyone about if the Sunshine Special ever operated as an All Pullman train as well?


« Last Edit: Jan 27th, 2017, 5:53pm by Transcon » Logged
HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3433
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #46 on: Jan 27th, 2017, 2:12pm »
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transcon - Lodge Members -
 
Well, own inference and conjecture something of a "... best guess and by golly ..." estimation. Here, we address the once weekly schedule,  
with its own equipment demands. In the detailed consist (shown earlier in this thread), nothing there suggests any variety of "dormitory" cars.  
 
We are agreed here about concerns of a "13S, NAC" sleeper. Likely a 12S-DR wherein the berth space not for public sale? So that the "13S"  
could have provided crew dormitory spaces? As the train a joint line schedule, serving US and Mexico, the DR on the "13S" Car would have  
provided space to keep up with requisite "paper work". (An Official Register of the time could prove helpful.)
 
Compare, in past there were lines which operated revenue cars with Lounge space. But, some of these, in operation, served as "Lounge -  
Dormitory" cars. At this late date, it is a mystery? Per your request, your writer has no files or photos about this particular train...
 
....................... Vern .........................


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Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #47 on: Jan 27th, 2017, 6:46pm »
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I donīt know any heavyweight lounge dormitory cars. Werenīt lounge dormitory cars something more common with streamliner cars? Top trains like the 20th Century Limited and Super Chief had these.
But again, baggage dormitory cars are equally rare among heavyweight cars.
 
Going a bit off topic: The only US train I know so far where crews used sleeping cars was the Olympian Hiawatha. In the very last years of operation, during off season the Touralux sleeper used to be occupied by the crew rather than by passengers as open section sleepers were very unpopular by the late 50s and early 60s so that this particular car often ran without any passengers. So the MILW staff moved from the baggage dormitory to the Touralux sleeper because the berths there certainly were more comfy than the bunks of the baggage dormitory.


« Last Edit: Jan 27th, 2017, 6:46pm by Transcon » Logged
HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3433
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #48 on: Jan 28th, 2017, 11:00am »
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on Jan 27th, 2017, 6:46pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I donīt know any heavyweight lounge dormitory cars. Werenīt lounge dormitory cars something more common with streamliner cars?...  

 
Transcon - Lodge Members -
 
As a disclaimer and caveat. Your writer with much experiences riding B&O ages back. The line notable with its good Shops,  
and its resourceful work in update and modernizing "HW" rolling stock.  So that, on dates in the early to mid 1960, seem to  
recall reworked HW types used on B&O #5 and #6. For its operating convenience, it may have had its reasons in provision of  
some dorm space, and rest of cars in use as lounges. Else, the schedule ran with newer "LW" equipment. And, as B&O ran  
some modernized car types, we may only guess the types were not unheard of on NYC and PRR?
 
Consider the car at issue. Noted as a "13S, NAC" sleeper. The fact it used on a US - Mexico schedule, and on what a weekly  
operation, permits an inference it provided crew dorm space. Too, and in the era, notes on loading of the baggage car. Such the  
case, then with it requirements of U S Customs inspection at border crossings. Yes?
 
Is that in line with what were MOPAC System operating policies of the time?
 
....................... Vern .....................
 


« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2017, 12:27pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

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Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1724
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #49 on: Jan 30th, 2017, 11:27am »
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on Jan 27th, 2017, 6:46pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)

I don't know any heavyweight lounge dormitory cars.

 
Transcon, I am not familiar with Missouri Pacific practice, but I do know that several top-tier Santa Fe Limiteds in the Heavyweight era carried a car that was listed as "10 Sections - Lounge."
 
Jerry is correct that the usual practice for Pullman Porters was to occupy one of the Sections aboard their assigned cars (to be near their patrons 24 hours a day), but the Dining Car and Lounge Car staffs required dormitory space of their own.  On Santa Fe's de Luxe, for example, this ten-Section Lounge  Car carried the only open Sections on the train; and I believe it is a reasonable conjecture that these Sections would have been used for crew dormitory space.
 
Again, based only on my limited knowledge of Santa Fe practice-- though locomotive crews changed every three or four hours, and Conductors, Brakemen, and Chair Car Porters had somewhat longer assigned runs, I believe that Pullman Porters remained with their assigned cars for the duration of the run, and likewise Dining Car and Lounge Car staffs would travel endpoint-to-endpoint.
 
It also seems plausible that the 13-Section car might be used as Dormitory space-- its position all the way forward would minimize public traffic past the sleeping crew.  Perhaps some Sections were set aside for the crew (at the forward end of the car, perhaps), and the remainder were sold as public accommodations?  Again, I have no proof, but it seems like a reasonable conjecture.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jan 31st, 2017, 7:37pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Norm_Anderson
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #50 on: Jan 31st, 2017, 8:09pm »
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on Jan 27th, 2017, 1:46pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Any infos anyone about if the Sunshine Special ever operated as an All Pullman train as well?
 

 
I did a bit of checking, and could not find any evidence that the Sunshine Special was all-Pullman.  I saw a 1931 timetable that listed Chair Cars and coaches in the consist, as well as Pullmans.
 
The Sunshine Special was apparently the flagship from its introduction in 1915 until it was upstaged by the Diesel-powered Texas Eagle in 1948.  During those 33 years, the Sunshine Special was advertised as "the low-altitude, mild-weather route" between the Midwest (St. Louis) and California, connecting to Southern Pacific trains at El Paso.  Missouri Pacific was apparently invested in this service.
 
However, it was rather standard US practice that, if passenger demand required running a train in more than one section, the first section was almost always all-Pullman, with the Chair Cars comprising the second section (with its own Dining Car and Lounge Car).  I would be very surprised if this event did not happen, at least on occasion, through the prosperous 1920s.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #51 on: Feb 1st, 2017, 4:21am »
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Hi Norm
Well I heard that the Sunshine Special ran in two sections (one sleeper and one coach) during WWII and also during holiday season in 1946 and 1947. Chances are high that this was also the case in the 20s. I just wanted to know if it ever ran as All-Pullman train when not being split into sections. But it seems like the City of Mexico was the only MP/T&P train who did that.
You mentioned a 10 section lounge car on the De Luxe. Itīs the first time I hear of such a car on this train.  
As far as I know it had a baggage club lounge, a diner, a parlor lounge observation and 4 sleepers of which all were All-Room sleepers; means none of them had sections. Because of this I assumed that the crew didnīt stay on board all the way through but was regularily exchanged, so that no sleeping space was needed for the crewmembers.


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Norm_Anderson
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #52 on: Feb 1st, 2017, 8:54am »
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Transcon, I may have been mistaken about the 10-Section Lounge Car on the de Luxe.  I was unaware that this train used a Parlor Lounge for its Observation.
 
The 10-Section Lounge Cars were used on the flagship California Limited at that time.  This floorplan could also be found on the heavyweight Chief and Super Chief (which, as a heavyweight train during its initial year of operation, used hand-picked cars from the Chief pool).
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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George_Harris
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #53 on: Feb 1st, 2017, 10:13pm »
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I don't doubt that the Sunshine Special ran in two sections, and likely did almost normally.  In its early years, for certain as late as 1953, as I have a MoPac schedule for that year, the Texas Eagle was scheduled to run in two sections, with the sections divided by destination, into a West Texas Section (Dallas, Ft. Worth and west) and a South Texas Section (Houston, San Antonio and south).  Each section had both Pullmans and Coaches.

« Last Edit: Feb 2nd, 2017, 12:02pm by George_Harris » Logged
Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #54 on: Feb 4th, 2017, 4:07pm »
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Well George,
what you are talking about is not whether it was split into coach and sleeper sections but whether it was split into sections for different destinations.
Yes, the Texas Eagle just took over the operational style of the Sunshine Special.
The Sunshine Special was always a train which had 2 destinations: San Antonio and El Paso. It was always split up in Longview. The Texas Eagle continued the same thing: at Longview, it was split up: The South Texas Eagle for San Antonio (with sleepers to Mexico) and the West Texas Eagle for El Paso (including a Dallas-Los Angeles SP sleeper which continued to Los Angeles on the Sunset Limited in the early and mid 50s).  
My question would be, if the Sunshine Special ever was operated in 4 sections after Longview:
One coach and one sleeper section to San Antonio and one coach and one sleeper section to El Paso.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #55 on: Apr 20th, 2017, 2:36pm »
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on Feb 4th, 2017, 4:07pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Well George,
what you are talking about is not whether it was split into coach and sleeper sections but whether it was split into sections for different destinations.
Yes, the Texas Eagle just took over the operational style of the Sunshine Special.
The Sunshine Special was always a train which had 2 destinations: San Antonio and El Paso. It was always split up in Longview. The Texas Eagle continued the same thing: at Longview, it was split up: The South Texas Eagle for San Antonio (with sleepers to Mexico) and the West Texas Eagle for El Paso (including a Dallas-Los Angeles SP sleeper which continued to Los Angeles on the Sunset Limited in the early and mid 50s).  
My question would be, if the Sunshine Special ever was operated in 4 sections after Longview:
One coach and one sleeper section to San Antonio and one coach and one sleeper section to El Paso.

 
 
Wouldn't care to say "Never" about what the operation of the Texas Eagle was, but I can't seem to find anything about what happened after Longview involving more than one section to each of the designations mentioned. Meaning just that - I failed to find an indication of such. I sort of doubt that passenger loads would have required it, but - well, if they did, then the MP would have done whatever they needed to.


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